| cousin_luigi | metala: If macros are used, it's not much use these days. | 04:44 |
|---|---|---|
| metala | cousin_luigi: good to know. But _Random was out when I texted that. I will write a irssi script to see if the people in the conversation are still online. | 08:05 |
| hacksenwerk | So what is now the solution to keep support for 32bit in devuan? | 14:52 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: I thought the project could provide a live only iso for 32bit, running a different kernel, like Linux-libre and as always, with refractainstaller installed by default, so everyone could use that instead of an installer. | 14:54 |
| hacksenwerk | Could also be any other 32bit kernel. | 14:54 |
| hacksenwerk | imo this is the solution that does the least work. | 14:56 |
| hacksenwerk | Using the actual 32bit installer ISOs and put a different kernel in them would also be possible, so everything would work as before. | 14:57 |
| hacksenwerk | To me the dropped support is a dealbreaker for using Devuan any longer. I know it is not Devuans fault, it is debians. I feel sorry for Devuan and anger for debian. Imo it is their second big dumb decision after the systemd desaster. | 15:00 |
| hacksenwerk | Maybe it time to think something newL Getting more indepentend from the decisions of the debian team. We already using replacement packages like eudev and such, why not using alternative kernel, or at least provide alternative kernels beside the debian stock kernel? | 15:02 |
| hacksenwerk | With such policy the only dealbreaker for people who using Devuan would be the end of debian. | 15:04 |
| hacksenwerk | What do you all think? | 15:04 |
| fsmithred | hacksenwerk, refracta_13_nox_libre_i386-<yesterday's date>.iso is on my hard drive. I need to fix a couple of things and rebuild then upload. uses linux-libre-6.13 from freem. | 15:24 |
| fsmithred | I don't think that will happen in devuan. | 15:25 |
| freem | thanks for info | 15:25 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: nice. I use linux-libre too. | 15:35 |
| hacksenwerk | Problem is the 32bit user would have to do a sys upgrade each release, when theres no longer 32bit isos provided by devuan. Same for debian of course. | 15:35 |
| fsmithred | oops- sorry, I meant freesh not freem | 15:36 |
| fsmithred | I think there will be a refracta and gnuinos 32-bit isos, and both of those are devuan under the hood. | 15:38 |
| hacksenwerk | Let's say we use the last stable 32bit that was build. We probably can easily upgrade from devuan 5 to devuan 6. But will it be possible to upgrade from devuan 5 to lets say devuan 8? Or do we have to install Devaun 5 and then upgrade to 6, from there upgrade to 7 and then finally upgrade to 8? A mess... | 15:38 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: Yeah I know that it was a mistyping ;) | 15:39 |
| fsmithred | upgrades should not skip releases | 15:39 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: right | 15:39 |
| hacksenwerk | And that's the mess | 15:39 |
| fsmithred | why? | 15:39 |
| hacksenwerk | Only one upgrade would be no big problem as you do it right after the installation. | 15:40 |
| fsmithred | I don't know how long debian will continue to provide 32-bit packages. For now they are still being built. | 15:40 |
| fsmithred | just not the kernel | 15:40 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: Why it's a mess to upgrade from 5 three times in a row? | 15:40 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: huh? didn't you get my message yesterday? | 15:41 |
| hacksenwerk | I asked at debian | 15:41 |
| fsmithred | which message? | 15:41 |
| fsmithred | and I don't understand what you're asking. You should upgrade from 5 to 6 to 7 to 8, not 5 to 8. | 15:41 |
| hacksenwerk | This: "bookworm will be the last release with i386 kernels. 1 year of support after the release of trixie, then 2 years of LTS support, followed by 2+ years of ETLS support note ETLS isn't offically debian, so support is dependent on funding" | 15:42 |
| fsmithred | yes, I got that. It relates to the kernel. | 15:42 |
| djph | fsmithred: he's asking for distors to keep support for an antique architecture, because "it still works" | 15:42 |
| fsmithred | there are thousands of other packages that are still being build for 32-bit | 15:42 |
| djph | or something, I dunno, I think he ignored me | 15:42 |
| fsmithred | I want 32-bit to keep working too. At least until my EEE finally dies. | 15:43 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: I didn't ask anything. You asked why it's a mess. | 15:43 |
| hacksenwerk | devuan5.iso -> upgrade to devuan6 -> upgrade to devuan7 -> upgrade to devuan8 | 15:44 |
| hacksenwerk | That's the mess. | 15:44 |
| hacksenwerk | People want to make a quick install. | 15:44 |
| fsmithred | and I ask again - why is it a mess? That's the normal path. | 15:44 |
| hacksenwerk | huh? no! | 15:44 |
| hacksenwerk | You download the actual stable iso and install it | 15:44 |
| hacksenwerk | We are in the future now where Devuan8 is stable | 15:45 |
| hacksenwerk | But last 32bit stable iso is devuan5 | 15:45 |
| fsmithred | well then I guess if you want a new installation of devuan 8 you'll have to use gnuinos | 15:46 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: yes so a derivate | 15:46 |
| djph | fsmithred: I haven't heard about *the kernel* dropping 32-bit support any time soon -- just that distros aren't shipping it much (at all) after the current release cycle(s) | 15:46 |
| fsmithred | otherwise, system dist-upgrade like everyone else | 15:46 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: Yes or change the distribution. | 15:46 |
| fsmithred | djph, there's no 32-bit kernel in excalibur/ceres. It got pulled a few months ago. | 15:46 |
| hacksenwerk | And I am on that point now, where I want to make that decision. | 15:47 |
| djph | fsmithred: yeah, so *the distro* is pulling it, but one can still go get it mainline ... | 15:47 |
| fsmithred | find us a kernel maintainer who wants to keep 32 | 15:47 |
| hacksenwerk | No. That's not my job. | 15:47 |
| djph | o_O | 15:48 |
| hacksenwerk | Call my lazy but I don't like to administrate multiple different distros on multiple different computers. | 15:48 |
| hacksenwerk | It already annoys me enough that vps hosters force you to use debian. | 15:49 |
| hacksenwerk | Its all really sad... I was so happy after the release of Daedalus that Devuan got the same release speed as debian. | 15:51 |
| hacksenwerk | But this now is a dealbreaker. | 15:52 |
| hacksenwerk | It really made me aware how bad the dependency to debian is. Cause what will come next? What dumb decision will be the next big mistake done by debian that devuan has to take too? | 15:54 |
| djph | hacksenwerk: so volunteer to be a kernel maintainer for 32-bit devuan? | 15:58 |
| fsmithred | he already declined | 16:00 |
| fsmithred | hacksenwerk, another option is to do a debootstrap install and add the libre kernel | 16:00 |
| hacksenwerk | And this is not about "You have to maintain something" of course you have. But why not drop some of the packages that are just copies of already existing packages but with a fancier look, or oh look here its the same program but the buttons are on different positions... They should use the energy to provide 32bit kernels instead of this shitload of redundant packages. | 16:00 |
| fsmithred | hacksenwerk, another option is to do a debootstrap install and add the libre kernel <- repeated in case you missed it | 16:01 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: thank you yeah i missed it... | 16:02 |
| fsmithred | that will work as long as debian keeps making 32-bit packges, and I haven't seen any word of when that will happen. | 16:02 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: did you see it coming their drop of 32bit kernels? :( | 16:02 |
| fsmithred | and that was a badly constructed sentence, but I think you probably understood | 16:02 |
| fsmithred | yes | 16:03 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: when? | 16:03 |
| fsmithred | I don't remember. Maybe a year ago? | 16:03 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: This is not a particularly long lead time... | 16:06 |
| djph | fsmithred: huh, the writing's been on the wall for 32-bit for ages | 16:06 |
| fsmithred | if it gets to the point that I can no longer use devuan, then I'll have to do fresh installs of something else. | 16:06 |
| fsmithred | djph, yeah, I know. | 16:06 |
| djph | probably the case that "the one guy maintaining it" got pushed out of the core distros maybe? | 16:07 |
| djph | I dunno, it's speculative and not very relevant to here, I'll stop before the ops tell me to take it to -offtopic ;) | 16:08 |
| hacksenwerk | That's another point that makes me really angry: that they did it in this short period of time. Conspiracy hypothesis: it was planned so people get rid of their so called old computers "Hey be a dumb consumist, buy a new one!" | 16:08 |
| fsmithred | I think it's the same team making all the kernels and they just decided it was time to drop 32 | 16:08 |
| djph | probably. I mean the newest hardware is what, 15-20 years old now? | 16:09 |
| fsmithred | hacksenwerk, that's a fact with every new release, whether it's intended or not. | 16:09 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: They could have make it like this: Releasing Trixie and simultaniously and then announce that this will be the last release containing 32bit kernels. | 16:10 |
| fsmithred | I think my EEE is 14 years ole | 16:10 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: Its not old. Thats a label the industries sh*ts into the world | 16:10 |
| hacksenwerk | They want you to think its old so you buy something new. | 16:11 |
| hacksenwerk | Reuse, reczcle, second-hand are a things capitalists don't like. | 16:11 |
| hacksenwerk | *recycle | 16:12 |
| fsmithred | well, I can't really use a big web browser on the EEE - in only has 2G RAM | 16:12 |
| fsmithred | we're really straying from a support discussion here | 16:12 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: yes but the problem is not the pc its the bloated monster you call webbrowser | 16:12 |
| hacksenwerk | fsmithred: yes | 16:12 |
| hacksenwerk | :( | 16:12 |
| fsmithred | yes, I know. Bloat. | 16:12 |
| hacksenwerk | I still have to think about what I'm doing now. I already bookmarked: slackware, tinycorelinux, alpine, void and slitaz. Will have to read their websites. | 16:14 |
| hacksenwerk | It's so sad... I really like Devuan... :'( | 16:14 |
| yeti | I'm mentally prepeared to see the x86/32 eol in an announce of the linux kernel. | 16:15 |
| hacksenwerk | yeti: me too | 16:15 |
| yeti | freebsd and openbsd already have done similar, so my future will be netbsd | 16:16 |
| hacksenwerk | yeti: That's why I will deep dive into building things on my own, as I already do for nearly everything else in my life. | 16:16 |
| hacksenwerk | It is bad if others make the decisions for you. That is the opposite of anarchy. | 16:18 |
| hacksenwerk | later | 16:18 |
| djph | yeti: heh, it took them what, 30 years to EOL support for the 386? kernel will probably "support" it for a little while longer anyway | 16:18 |
| yeti | netbsd. | 16:19 |
| yeti | I started using linux right after linus announced it in minix's newsgroup and I really hat enough "roll my own system" years. | 16:20 |
| yeti | I still may be capable to do that but I've other things I value as more important. | 16:20 |
| yeti | my oldest netbsd system cirrently is a P4M and apart from battery hiccups really runs fine. | 16:21 |
| yeti | somewhen I'll dedust my T23 too | 16:22 |
| yeti | (P3M) | 16:22 |
| djph | probaly burns more electricity than a modern tower ;) | 16:23 |
| yeti | they are for the sundays! :-P | 16:23 |
| djph | ha :) (ooops, this isn't -offtopic, sorry) | 16:24 |
| amarsh04 | finally can upgrade KDE/Plasma/Qt6 in Ceres | 17:03 |
| metala | yeti: Whait what? x86/32 EOL on Openbsd? Do you mean amd64 32-bit compatibility mode or you really mean x86? | 17:44 |
| yeti | more like end of frequend bugfixes in openbsd's case but that takes down the main reason to use openbsd... | 17:47 |
| wikan | hi, hello, nice to be here again | 18:46 |
| wikan | well, I wonder if there is any person who could help me and suggest anything | 18:47 |
| wikan | i use bsd and I have my own installation script for my os. I don't use default installer. I want to do exactly the same with devuan. Is there any documentation about this? | 18:49 |
| rwp | https://wiki.debian.org/Debootstrap | 18:50 |
| rwp | That's kind'a terrible documentation but it is the basics there. | 18:51 |
| rwp | This is arguably better https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/apds03.en.html | 18:52 |
| wikan | by now I think I should use bootstrap to install system basics and then manualy install bootloader and rest of os | 18:53 |
| wikan | hmmm i like it | 18:54 |
| wikan | thank you | 18:54 |
| wikan | i think it is exactly what i wanted | 18:54 |
| fsmithred | mmdebstrap might be better, wikan | 19:02 |
| wikan | but the question is which one is on .iso images? | 19:08 |
| wikan | or, maybe should I build my own .iso image? | 19:09 |
| wikan | i quess I can just use this tool to create bootable usb | 19:10 |
| fsmithred | oh, the live isos have debootstrap installed | 19:20 |
| fsmithred | if you boot with network connection and enough RAM, you could install it in the live session. | 19:21 |
| fsmithred | use which tool to create bootable usb? | 19:21 |
| wikan | i have never try to create my own bootable usb yet | 19:57 |
| wikan | but i quess it is possible with debootstrap and mm version of it too | 19:57 |
| Xenguy | Wow, I just ran 'apt-get upgrade' on one of my laptops and there was nearly a half Gb of updates | 20:48 |
| Xenguy | Haven't seen that kind of volume for awhile IIRC (this is Chimaera) | 20:48 |
| buZz | nice | 20:49 |
| djph | Xenguy: don't run gitlab ... that's like a 1.5G upgrade every time :/ | 21:02 |
| Xenguy | djph, no gitlab here | 21:05 |
| Xenguy | If I needed something like that I'd probably look at gitea or one of the forks first | 21:06 |
| djph | Xenguy: yeh, I'm running one here, it's so big :( | 21:08 |
| paculino | I don't understand how something could be so poorly made that it uses 1,5 GB for upgrades when its alternatives don't. | 21:21 |
| djph | I think it's constantly jsut the whole thing, rather than just the diffs (or whatever "upgrade" packages do | 21:23 |
| paculino | I guess that makes sense | 21:31 |
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