| Centurion_Dan | alv: Hi! Long time!!! | 01:07 |
|---|---|---|
| golinux | Centurion_Dan: alv did a drive-by . . . | 01:22 |
| nsITobin | Greetings, I was wondering if you offered a rootfs tarball or is there some instructions that I can use to install normally and create a rootfs tarball because manage my own grub and a lot of distros seem to run roughshot on the bootloader unless it can be told not to. | 17:23 |
| debdog | nsITobin: the debian/devuan installer offers an option to install without bootloader | 17:24 |
| debdog | https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s03.en.html#di-make-bootable topic: "6.3.7.3. Continue Without Boot Loader" | 17:27 |
| gnarface | that said, we do also have the same tarballs that debian offers, but the debianized way to do this is with debootstrap | 17:28 |
| debdog | we do have tarballs, I wasn't aware of that | 17:28 |
| gnarface | there's a particular use for them, pxe stuff maybe | 17:29 |
| gnarface | i was vague on it | 17:29 |
| debdog | hmm, where are they? not there: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_daedalus/ | 17:29 |
| gnarface | no no, some long deep path way inside the debian side of the repo i think | 17:30 |
| debdog | and they are not mentioned there: https://www.devuan.org/get-devuan | 17:30 |
| nsITobin | see my real issue with relying on something like debbootstrap is how is that any more open to my specifications than mock with dnf | 17:33 |
| gnarface | yea, believe it or not there's several other ways to install debian that we don't mention but still work afaik | 17:33 |
| gnarface | having trouble finding the right paths though... | 17:34 |
| gnarface | nsITobin: well, for starters debootstrap will straight up give you a minimal rootfs without installing a kernel or bootloader automatically on top of it | 17:34 |
| gnarface | (unless you ask it to by supplying the package names for them in the list of extra packages to install) | 17:35 |
| gnarface | and it doesn't need anything but an empty directory, so you can use it safely on a running system without risk of disrupting that system | 17:35 |
| nsITobin | is it all protected and systemized or just basically eq to dnf directly doing its stuff to a sysroot | 17:36 |
| gnarface | i'm not familiar with dnf, sorry | 17:36 |
| nsITobin | well they likely stole the idea from debian anyway seeing as redhat long stopped inventing anything them selves. | 17:37 |
| gnarface | it installs slightly less than the bare minimum to boot - basically everything but the kernel and bootloader, into the target directory, nothing ever leaves that directory, and it doesn't touch the host systems' package tree | 17:39 |
| gnarface | you can tar the directory up and use that if you wish | 17:39 |
| gnarface | but if you use it of course you'll have to remember to install a kernel and a bootloader to make it bootable | 17:39 |
| gnarface | i assume you are clear on that part | 17:39 |
| nsITobin | oh yeah no i am not unfamilar especially now that I have been through the LFS experience after trying to bash fedora/rhel into working shape and yeah I can do it .. i understand the basics and I understand why the redhat ecosystem isn't as good because of it or at least not as good for me.. | 17:41 |
| nsITobin | but if i spend all day bashing the OS into shape .. where is the time for anything else | 17:41 |
| nsITobin | so i have wondered this way, Hi btw lol | 17:42 |
| gnarface | well, the idea of using the regular installer and just skipping the install bootloader step isn't a bad one | 17:42 |
| gnarface | make sure you use one of the normal installers not one of the live isos | 17:43 |
| gnarface | i can't find that tarball i'm thinking of, but if it's not on there but you can find the debian one, it'll probably work just as well, since you can cross-grade a minimal debian instasll to devuan pretty easy | 17:43 |
| nsITobin | I was wanting to build a universal linux installer based on wim-technology or rather the free and open source and superior wimlib impl .. staged image based or spins are common place all over linux but you have to host each fully formed varient.. Microsoft solved this in 2003 or so.. open source developers have brought it to everyone and improved it.. It isn't a catchall solution for granular custom installs but it could save storage bandwith | 17:45 |
| nsITobin | electricity and the planet even.. but that may be a bit of an idealistic stretch heh | 17:45 |
| gnarface | hmm, i thought that tarball was on there somewhere, but i might have dreamed it... | 17:49 |
| nsITobin | since fedora is livecd hell with like 30-40 different composed livecds AS installer cds it was originally invisioned for them.. also those who can compose a good number of high quality configurations but really can't host it without it becoming prohibitively expensive.. | 17:49 |
| nsITobin | but anyway i know once I get on the distro I should be able to make it and from what you have inidcated it will be more or less how I expect it to work I just can't laze into doing it from el8 i guess LOL | 17:51 |
| fsmithred | gnarface, here's a netboot tarball for daedalus. There's also one for ceres. I didn't check for excalibur. | 17:52 |
| fsmithred | https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/daedalus/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/ | 17:52 |
| fsmithred | mini.iso there, too | 17:52 |
| nsITobin | ha setup.exe | 17:53 |
| fsmithred | where's that? | 17:54 |
| nsITobin | mini.iso | 17:54 |
| fsmithred | I don't think you'll need that program. (I have no idea what it does.) | 17:55 |
| nsITobin | looks like a method to bootstrap install from an installed version of winders | 17:56 |
| nsITobin | I have never used it and totally forgot debian had that thing.. | 17:56 |
| fsmithred | maybe. Long ago I had a shortcut on my windows desktop to run loadlin. | 17:57 |
| nsITobin | last time I used debian.. was when wpa supplicant was in contraversy | 17:57 |
| gnarface | there is is, how the fuck did i miss that? thanks fsmithred | 17:58 |
| gnarface | nsITobin: i think it's just so if you're a desperate windows user looking for a way out and you plug in a usb drive with this thing on it, it will do something expected | 17:59 |
| gnarface | that's just a guess though | 17:59 |
| nsITobin | well before I jump down this particular rabbit hole does devuan have any plans to kill x11? | 17:59 |
| gnarface | not as long as debian isn't | 18:00 |
| nsITobin | that's not exactly reassuring | 18:00 |
| gnarface | it's in daedalus already so it's not ever going away from daedalus anyway | 18:00 |
| nsITobin | yeah cause I plan to stay on x11 until the kernel literally won't work with it anymore. | 18:01 |
| gnarface | debian policy mandates they neither add nor remove software from the current stable release, so if they are gonna pull it, it won't happen until a later release | 18:02 |
| gnarface | and that should probably give you a good few years of notice | 18:02 |
| gnarface | but you know... such things tend not to die so easy | 18:03 |
| gnarface | the chances of a fork would be pretty high | 18:04 |
| gnarface | they might even consider keeping it in devuan if there were enough volunteers... | 18:05 |
| nsITobin | I plan to take an active role if xorg tries to make x11 functionally worthless without wayland components or too complicated to reasonably achieve a working xserver regardless if it remains "technically" possible. I just don't accept wayland as a replacement because it its self isn't trying to be.. Redhat and its downstream and upstream and tributary ecosystems are pushing so very hard to remove x11 from everything and deny it to everyone they can. | 18:05 |
| gnarface | but i'm not speaking authoritatively on the matter, just my guesses | 18:05 |
| nsITobin | I also don't trust BSD not to give up or do something... BSD to it that makes it less linux friendly | 18:06 |
| nsITobin | so their thin-fork isn't much comfort | 18:06 |
| nsITobin | for me the struggle for one year now the full commitment to go linux from a lifetime of Windows largely Windows NT now that there were absolutely no hardware blockers has been tough because I was lead by a fedora contributor into the fedora ecosystem where my.. preferences or opinions left me with no answers and no one to ask.. I told them about my chroot install standalone grub and wim-based tendancies just as I told you.. the fedora community leader | 18:10 |
| nsITobin | guy said I was disgusting for wanting things and later banned me for defending my desire to you know.. set up my computer how I want so it works better for me? | 18:10 |
| nsITobin | I am just kinda done with that section of the fedora ecosystem and want to experience the kind of linux that I couldn't because of hardware compat.. So I did LFS and its great but its SO MUCH WORK and i have other stuff higher level to do and am kinda over forcing a system into a shape i can best use or having to do literally everything. | 18:13 |
| gnarface | more or less the exact reason i switched to debian and later to devuan | 18:18 |
| nsITobin | that's reassuring gnarface | 18:37 |
| nsITobin | LXQt is there that means openbox should be as well right? | 18:52 |
| golinux | Yes | 18:56 |
| fsmithred | I have an lxqt with openbox in excalibur install. AFAIK, x11 is still in ceres. | 19:01 |
| n4dir | https://packages.debian.org/sid/xorg | 19:02 |
| n4dir | wayland is great on live-distros, cause you can't just switch the keyboard layout. Like with setxkbmap de | 19:03 |
| fsmithred | can you boot with a chosen locale and keyboard? | 19:03 |
| n4dir | fsmithred: perhaps. I can't say it doesn't work all time, it can work, it can not work. But it sure is annoying | 19:04 |
| n4dir | but of course if you boot a live it really is fun to first fiddle for 20 minutes to get your keyboard layout | 19:04 |
| n4dir | nearly as much fun as figuring out the root password. | 19:05 |
| fsmithred | n4dir, have you tried a guinos live iso? There's an easy selection at the beginning of boot. | 19:05 |
| n4dir | no, didn't try that. | 19:06 |
| fsmithred | live-isos are sudo no password | 19:06 |
| n4dir | does it use Wayland? | 19:06 |
| fsmithred | fuck no! | 19:06 |
| n4dir | well, as long X, i just setxkbmap de | 19:06 |
| fsmithred | it's a libre distro based on devuan | 19:06 |
| n4dir | and right, those distros who needed a root password but didn't really tell it, that were not many, and it was the past | 19:06 |
| fsmithred | I don't think it even uses udev. Last one I tried had vdev. | 19:07 |
| n4dir | besides that i didn't see much problems with Wayland, but the both distros used KDE | 19:07 |
| n4dir | also i only had a quick look, and didn't try to install apps i want/need, say fluxbox | 19:07 |
| fsmithred | anybody know if wayland figured out how to do vnc yet? | 19:08 |
| yeti | last I read was "this makes no sense as core functionality, let usespace take care of it" | 19:08 |
| fsmithred | Does that mean "Let the vnc devs figure it out."? | 19:09 |
| yeti | kind of. | 19:09 |
| fsmithred | not surprising | 19:09 |
| nsITobin | My issue with wayland is its design philophy for one putting most of the work on the client app instead of the display server and is all about how it isn't a successor to xorg its a totally different replacement you MAY be allowed to run xorg apps on for some time longer. I just can't find it any more acceptable than systemd | 19:10 |
| yeti | arent the weyland devs to a big percentage old x11 developers that have kille x11 by stuffing every feature and their dogs into it and then declaring it unmaintainable? | 19:10 |
| nsITobin | also how it looks feels on the screen the reaction the response and heavior its different even when visually taking a screenshot its identical | 19:10 |
| nsITobin | yeti: I can't answer that for reasons of not wanting to cause a bunch of drama | 19:11 |
| yeti | sure EEE is always done by others, not by the "good ones" | 19:11 |
| yeti | I miss XDMCP | 19:12 |
| nsITobin | but whatever quality in running wayland compositing with wayland clicking dragging drawing in wayland is the same quality that makes Windows 8+ DWM feel wrong.. it isn't just aesthetics and layout its the flow of action and feedback visual lag-based how it draws on the screen.. | 19:14 |
| yeti | over the years several apps caused increasingly more load when run over network, so I stopped using it. maybe a gtk3 problem? in debian6 days I used networked X11 daily | 19:14 |
| yeti | my first X11 ran on 2 386dx25 because one was too weak for having the client and server tasks | 19:16 |
| nsITobin | I have never been able to explain it.. it feels wrong not emotionally (ignoring that) the CONNECTION between me, keyboard/mouse, and what and how it is on screen is .. different. | 19:17 |
| nsITobin | also secondary displays like to gitch to hell no matter what card I throw at it | 19:18 |
| nsITobin | i dunno more i try and figure it out the more i ramble on about it.. just x11 and some compton dirivative is tangibly different than wayland even when running the exact same software and versions.. and even same or disabled visual effects. | 19:20 |
| nsITobin | but that is a FUTURE problem one I hope to help with once others reconize it but regardless of my personal preferences what I need is a system that isn't gonna ripped out from under me in 6 months or a year or have some stealthed breaking change because the impact broadly is indicated to be low.. Without a stable base a base that isn't constantly in my way like the latest redhat recursive abstraction layer I may as well go back to my ntlite'd Windows 10 | 19:25 |
| nsITobin | 2019 LTSC | 19:25 |
| nsITobin | so i very much hope I found the right distro for that and when doing all the everything isn't practical. | 19:27 |
| nsITobin | tl;dr i don't mind doing all the work i just can't always do it all at the same time ;) | 19:29 |
| nsITobin | yeti: i would have loved to get into linux about 20 years ago and I had tried it was always hardware compat that held me back i nearly did it in 2018 when I built this machine but the redhat/fedora ecosystem just couldn't provide working software ironic since all the environments and software versions I /wanted/ to use were long old and not doable. | 19:34 |
| nsITobin | kinda cruel joke actually first it was hardware then that became less of an issue then all the software started changing radically | 19:35 |
| yeti | my main machine was an Atari-ST bach then, I just had started to build a PC for MINIX and shortly later Linux showed up. so it probably was not accidentally that tha hardware did fit Linux too. | 19:45 |
| nsITobin | ah i love a good ascii text ui (especially ones like that) gonna just start sanely.. with usb media see what I get and see what i need to do. | 19:45 |
| nsITobin | yeti: you must know CDE then | 19:47 |
| yeti | sure | 19:47 |
| yeti | had that work on a HP... and XTerm crashed on it when hitting backspace... | 19:48 |
| nsITobin | i actually like it tho i'd make a couple aesthetic changes personally since Windows 3.1's design patents have long expired LOL but my real deal with it is i simply couldn't figure out how to setup shortcutlauncherthingswhatevertheyare | 19:48 |
| yeti | original CDE is open now? or do I screw up something? I think I saw some posts about it being resurrected and open | 19:49 |
| nsITobin | https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/ | 19:50 |
| yeti | https://astr0baby.wordpress.com/2020/05/03/cde-common-desktop-environment-on-netbsd-ebvarm-pinebook/ | 19:50 |
| yeti | 2020... time flies... | 19:51 |
| yeti | *sigh* | 19:51 |
| nsITobin | i built it for fedora 39 .. if motif was updated for an awareness of monitors vs desktop .. i'd use the window manager at least | 19:51 |
| nsITobin | System Menu - Title - Down - Up That's the order for a titlebar! | 19:52 |
| nsITobin | openbox (because you can't double click the menu to close) I have it setup as close shade title minimize max/restore and pin | 19:52 |
| nsITobin | even in windows I would close a window by double clicking the icon far more than going all the way to the right edge to close it | 19:53 |
| nsITobin | of course yeti if you compile it from SF it won't have the classic Solaris scheme .. you will have to color match from a screenshot | 19:54 |
| yeti | for me it was too much blingbling | 19:55 |
| nsITobin | I also built KDE1 earlier this year.. i wish the qt group would relicence QT1 and 2 for opensource while i could dist the kde parts i'd have to do some shit like.. maybe patches and user compiled qt1 and 2 to get past the restrictions? | 19:57 |
| yeti | KDE1 was forcing too much mouse use on me. luckily I had one of the KDE developers in arms reach back then and surviving in KDE with minimal mouse usage increasingly got better because he supported my complaints. | 19:59 |
| yeti | but if not I'd have been forced @work to use KDE, I would have skipped it completely | 20:00 |
| rustyaxe | xfce seems a nice place | 20:02 |
| nsITobin | well at heart I am a DOS/Windows 3.1 user and always will be.. its why something unix-like with sysvinit and x11 and openbox and a file manager and whatever else makes more sense to me than kde or gnome or mate or xfce in their current forms on wayland.. really this can go for the Windows eXperence as well.. and yeah it likely is because Win2k with blackbox or XP with some other shell or the fact I was a dos/windows 3.1 user when windows 3.1 came out | 20:08 |
| nsITobin | and was an impressionable small child and really liked the fractal program winfract. | 20:08 |
| rustyaxe | eh i've tried most versions of windows that came out, none ever seemed like something i'd willingly install on my computer | 20:09 |
| rustyaxe | windows 386 was novel because it was the first time i'd seen VGA graphics actually used | 20:10 |
| nsITobin | ignoring 9x cause everyone knows what 9x is was and how it was awesome and a disaster but still profitable.. of the NT line Windows 2000 was the first and best expression of NT and microsoft's not completely terrible vision at the time. XP was total trash until SP2 and Vista was on a technical level a release of year 2 of a 3 year devcycle cause longhorn was reset.. Windows 7 was solid if you ignore the ribbon and inbox trash. | 20:12 |
| nsITobin | 8+ aside from a few kernel improvements holds little intrest .. it doesn't really advance anything anyone has been working on for the past 30 years and activly seeks to break it and replace it with something else that doesn't to this day work as well. | 20:14 |
| nsITobin | the worst thing about windows 8 from a windows poweruser perspective one that likes using alt shells when the default.. uhh sucks? is you can still do that.. technically but good luck trying to manage or configure your computer just with the registry or what is left over in the management console and control panel cause you cannot launch or run anything using the modern framework without explorer running | 20:18 |
| nsITobin | and look how wayland is designed. | 20:19 |
| nsITobin | and the de's adapting to it. | 20:20 |
| fsmithred | This conversation should really be in #devuan-offtopic | 20:25 |
| nsITobin | I see. Nevermind then. | 20:27 |
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