| thecdnhermit | hey all, i just started with linux in about 2018 with ubuntu, switched to debian by 2020, and since then have been getting annoyed with how systemd has been taking over everything. almost might as well call it systemd instead of debian. i was directed to devuan, and have started my testing for usefulness and reliability. using sysvinit. i currently use debian on all systems i administrate, which | 05:47 |
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| thecdnhermit | includes my personal system, a server which a fair number of services and a couple other supporting systems, and several other family members' personal computers. if i can get away from systemd, that would be awesome! Devuan appears to be the fork for me! | 05:47 |
| fluffywolf | welcome! | 05:48 |
| thecdnhermit | things appear kinda quiet here and on the forums, but i know that doesn't say alot. my main concern is that Devuan is going to be continued for a long time yet | 05:48 |
| thecdnhermit | thank you fluffywolf | 05:48 |
| fluffywolf | the livliness of the channel varries with time of day... I'm about to head off to bed, and most of the US is already asleep. but there's a lot of eu people here still. | 05:49 |
| thecdnhermit | i'm in midwestern canada and i'm about to head to bed lol | 05:50 |
| thecdnhermit | fluffywolf: do you use devuan on your pc/server/both? | 05:52 |
| rkta | as with most software, it'll probably maintained till the greybeards die out ;) | 05:53 |
| fluffywolf | both | 05:54 |
| fluffywolf | rkta: heh, that reminds me, I should package my xmms builds. :P | 05:54 |
| thecdnhermit | rkta: and hopefully others take over in the meantime | 05:54 |
| fluffywolf | bbl, wolfy bedtime | 05:55 |
| thecdnhermit | ok goodnight | 05:55 |
| rkta | I'm not convienced about that take over part, but yes | 05:55 |
| thecdnhermit | i'm happy with my home-based debian server having an uptime of 102 days now (with no ups), and i'd be looking for the same reliability with a replacement | 05:56 |
| thecdnhermit | my personal system (this one) has been up for 79 days | 05:56 |
| rkta | devuan is basically debian with only some packages replaced. | 05:57 |
| thecdnhermit | that's what i understand, which is cool | 05:59 |
| thecdnhermit | so the base stability shouldn't change | 05:59 |
| thecdnhermit | it's just no systemd | 05:59 |
| rkta | yep | 06:01 |
| n4dir | I think there will always be options to avoid systemd, so i am kinda cool regarding projects dying or not dying. Can't say i have that fear regarding devuan though (but am not involved at all, so it really is just a feeling, or the lack of) | 06:03 |
| thecdnhermit | so question: does devuan read systemd system unit files and use them (convert them live?) | 06:03 |
| thecdnhermit | i noticed on my first install that there's still systemd unit files | 06:03 |
| n4dir | oh, sorry, i thought we were in off-topic. nevermind me | 06:03 |
| thecdnhermit | oh crap, which channel should i be in? | 06:04 |
| n4dir | no, you are in the right channel, i was assuming i am wrong. Just go on | 06:05 |
| thecdnhermit | oh ok...yeah i went and checked...apparently there's #devuan-offtopic as well | 06:05 |
| thecdnhermit | i occasionally forget which channel i last saw the window on...even though glowing-bear makes it easy to see lol | 06:08 |
| thecdnhermit | so just to be clear, my question is: seeing as devuan is very closely based on debian, and debian uses systemd, i can see that there would be some crossover with system config between systemd and the chosen non-systemd init system. so on my first fresh devuan install, there are a number of systemd service unit files. are they in use, and "live converted" for the chosen init system? or were they | 06:13 |
| thecdnhermit | just placed there by the installer and then converted to another location for actual use? | 06:13 |
| rkta | I don't think there is any magic involved. They are probably just not removed from the package. | 06:17 |
| rkta | but I'm only a user | 06:17 |
| thecdnhermit | well if systemd is not included in a devuan system, then the chosen init system shouldn't be able to read the systemd unit files that were written by the package installer when the package was installed. so those files need to be converted either on a one time basis or a live "as needed" basis, or that software won't be able to be used properly by the non-systemd init system | 06:21 |
| rkta | as I said, I don't know of some live conversion, but I'm only a user. You might want to wait for some maintainer for a definitive answer. | 06:26 |
| thecdnhermit | ok thank you! it's been a long day | 06:27 |
| thecdnhermit | i'll be here as long as my server stays up though lol | 06:27 |
| rwp | thecdnhermit, Packages may include various init files including systemd service unit files. But those are not used by non-systemd systems. They will just sit on disk. Nothing will read them. | 06:29 |
| rwp | Conversely sysvinit scripts are almost universally read by non-sysvinit inits. All of the other inits including systemd read and use sysvinit scripts for compatibility. | 06:30 |
| thecdnhermit | rwp: so are the systemd service unit files appropriately converted immediately after they're written? or how's that work? | 06:31 |
| rwp | Until the current time. My understanding is that in Debian systemd is going to drop reading sysvinit script copmatibility. | 06:31 |
| rwp | Those systemd service unit files are just sitting on disk. They are part of the package. NOTHING reads them in Devuan. | 06:31 |
| rwp | There is an experimental process to convert them back to other init systems. There is a message on the mailing list. Let me see if I can find it. | 06:32 |
| thecdnhermit | so devuan writes an appropriate service file as necessary when a package is installed? | 06:32 |
| rwp | Well I found it but the mailing list archive says it is only available to list members. So I can't cite the mail. But this is the package. https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/unit-translator | 06:34 |
| yeti | aaaapropos mailing list... is it registered with GMANE for the NNTP addicts among us? | 06:35 |
| rwp | No. How would it do that? There seems to be some confusion about how packaging of software works. | 06:35 |
| rwp | I don't know if the mailing list is subscribed to at gmane. Seems likely. I don't use gmane but if you can find it there then good. https://mailinglists.dyne.org/mailman/listinfo/dng/ | 06:36 |
| thecdnhermit | rwp: i did sign up to the mail list today...can't seem to access archives though...? | 06:36 |
| yeti | "(The current archive is only available to the list members.)" reads like a bad omen for the NNTP gateway | 06:38 |
| yeti | why do they hide? | 06:38 |
| rwp | I haven't visited the archive before. I just rather assumed that it would be available. I am subscribed and so read the email in my mailbox. | 06:38 |
| thecdnhermit | when i click the link for the archive it just takes me back to the signup page | 06:38 |
| yeti | that too | 06:38 |
| rwp | I see the same thing here too. It's odd. | 06:39 |
| Xenguy | thecdnhermit, Known issue... | 06:39 |
| thecdnhermit | so something is broken | 06:39 |
| rwp | Apparently borken! Getting back to your issue about init scripts. Is there something in particular you need? Otherwise just ignore the systemd service files. | 06:39 |
| Xenguy | https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20240926.022937.bae29eec.en.html | 06:39 |
| Xenguy | Apparently someone is working to fix the issue, but in the meantime, there you go | 06:40 |
| thecdnhermit | i'm just curious how this works...because the package manager will place the appropriate service file that was included with the package, but if that's a systemd service file it's useless to sysvinit. so is there a system in place to place the appropriate sysvinit unit files when the installed package doesn't support it? | 06:41 |
| rwp | With that information (Thanks Xenguy) Here is the cite https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20240828.170850.7df34247.en.html | 06:42 |
| rwp | All of the good packages include a sysvinit script. ssh and mariadb and all of those. Some of them though have become problems and removed the sysvinit script. Those are being recovered and included in a package called orphan-sysvinit-scripts. Install that if you need one of the now removed ones. | 06:44 |
| thecdnhermit | ok thank you, that answers my question | 06:46 |
| rwp | I look and there are only a few in there. I do see that rsyslog is in there and that's one that affects me because I have rsyslog installed on all of my machines. | 06:48 |
| rwp | Strange though because rsyslog has a sysvinit script. So I will just go, huh, there. But maybe it dropped off in Unstable and this is a Stable system and just not arrived at a release that needs it yet. | 06:49 |
| spine-o-saurus | hay when i try to run apt update the progress is staying at 0% | 06:50 |
| thecdnhermit | thanks rwp | 06:50 |
| spine-o-saurus | it never connects to deb.devuan.org | 06:50 |
| thecdnhermit | i'm out for tonight | 06:50 |
| spine-o-saurus | but i can hit the website with browser just fine | 06:50 |
| rwp | The deb.devuan.org is a round-robin DNS. I don't know why it would get stuck at 0%. It should rotate to another one. | 06:54 |
| rwp | If you have "host" or "dig" or other resolver installed then if you list it out you will see many IPs in the list. | 06:55 |
| spine-o-saurus | oh ok i just relaunched another command and i went thru now | 06:56 |
| spine-o-saurus | 21s | 06:56 |
| rwp | You might try selecting an individual package mirror from the package mirror list. https://www.devuan.org/os/packages has a reference to the mirror list. | 06:56 |
| rwp | Probably one of the mirrors is not reachable due to being down or router problem between you and it. | 06:56 |
| onefang | BTW, I figured out how to get connman to connect to a hidden SSID. Actually it officially can't, but this work around worked anyway. Make it not hidden when you tell connman about it, connect to it, save it. Then you can switch it back to hidden, and it keeps working. It can even connect during boot to the now hidden SSID. | 08:20 |
| avir327 | onefang, just curious: After "pairing", did you have a look if the config is portable, so it can be used with resp. adapted to other WiFi clients w/o exposing the SSID again? | 11:32 |
| onefang | I was just happy I got it to work. | 11:34 |
| avir327 | Still, nice to know! I'll have a look, if it comes to connman here :-) | 11:37 |
| golinux | thecdnhermit: Why are systemd files present in Devuan? https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1925 | 16:33 |
| freem | probably because devuan uses most of debian packages, and that those provide systemd files | 17:22 |
| fsmithred | 99% unforked debian packages | 17:25 |
| thecdnhermit | Thanks golinux | 18:54 |
| gnarface | anyone here using mumble on daedalus? | 19:20 |
| gnarface | i'm having a problem where the client crashes whenever DPMS kicks in, not sure why | 19:20 |
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