| cake1 | how do I use these images? I have a bpi m1 --> https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/daedalus/main/installer-armhf/20230607%2Bdeb12u7devuan1/images/u-boot/BananaPro/ | 02:18 |
|---|---|---|
| onefang | #devuan-arm might be a better place to ask that. | 02:19 |
| drizzt | cake1: hi ! | 02:19 |
| cake1 | hi okay | 02:19 |
| drizzt | cake1: going there with you :) | 02:20 |
| adhoc | are there any ports to risc-v hardware ? | 02:57 |
| onefang | #devuan-riscv might be a better place to ask that. B-) | 03:07 |
| onefang | Short answer, working on it. | 03:07 |
| adhoc | thanks onefang | 03:31 |
| adhoc | onefang: is # #devuan-riscv actually active these days? | 04:11 |
| onefang | Mostly not. | 04:11 |
| adhoc | dang | 04:17 |
| adhoc | curious to see what hardware is available that could be supported | 04:17 |
| rrq | adhoc: you could try making a riscv64 installer with my https://git.devuanorg/rrq/bespoke-installer.git | 04:43 |
| rrq | my https://git.devuan.org/rrq/bespoke-installer.git | 04:44 |
| adhoc | rrq: my question is, if i want to buy hardware to run devuan on, where should i focus? | 06:06 |
| gnarface | pine64 is making some, not sure if they're out yet though | 06:40 |
| adhoc | gnarface: yes, that is what lead me here to ask | 06:42 |
| adhoc | https://pine64.com/product/star64-model-a-8gb-single-board-computer/ | 06:43 |
| blizzow | I have daedalus installed on a lenovo laptop and the laptop is getting nuclear hot. So much so that it's been doing thermal shutdowns multiple times a day. I installed voidlinux on a different zfs and the laptop seems to run a lot less hot. | 07:01 |
| blizzow | I decided I'd try a fresh excalibur install on a new zfs pool and it's also running hot. | 07:02 |
| gnarface | if blizzow comes back tell him to make sure he's got acpid installed and check the value of /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu*/cpufreq/scaling_governor | 07:08 |
| gnarface | and if it's a nvidia system, the nvidia binary drivers too | 07:09 |
| rwp | blizzow, What model of Lenovo? I rum Devuan on several different models with no problem. I am wondering if perhaps the fan has seized up and needs to be replaced? | 07:23 |
| blizzow | rwp, it's an X1 Carbon Extreme Gen 5. | 07:23 |
| rwp | I have had the fan wear out on several different laptops. I run them full time and nothing moving lasts forever. Things get very hot without a fan. | 07:24 |
| blizzow | Fan is not seized up. | 07:24 |
| blizzow | Plus, void is running fine. | 07:24 |
| rwp | I have an X1 Nano and it gets warm. I would compare Linux kernels between the two. The Linux kernel in Devuan is the Debian Linux kernel. Same exact kernel. | 07:25 |
| rwp | It's the Linux kernel that interfaces to the hardware and is the thing that would matter. You could even run the Linux kernel from Void on Devuan and try it. And the reverse. | 07:25 |
| blizzow | I guess I could try and use the void kernel. 6.6 | 07:26 |
| rwp | On my laptop "cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor" returns "powersave". What does it on yours? | 07:26 |
| blizzow | I had to boot into void (thermal shutdown). In void at least it's using powersave. | 07:27 |
| rwp | If it says "performance" you might try "powersave" there. | 07:27 |
| gnarface | blizzow: make sure you have acpid too, and the nvidia drivers if it's got a nvidia card | 07:29 |
| blizzow | will do. | 07:34 |
| rwp | I'll note that Void is a rolling release and the kernel in Devuan/Debian which most closely matches it will be the kernel in Unstable. Unstable Sid is always the bleeding edge bits. | 07:40 |
| LucentW | might be an useful tidbit: Void right now ships 6.6 as default kernel and 6.11 as linux-mainline | 10:17 |
| Xenguy | gnarface, Just noticed your comment about acpid. I notice that it is not installed on either of my (thinkpad) laptops. Do you recommend having that package installed? If so, are there any disadvantages to doing so? | 12:58 |
| Xenguy | Also for me: | 12:59 |
| Xenguy | cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor | 12:59 |
| Xenguy | ondemand | 12:59 |
| Xenguy | ^^ Where can I look up these values and how to change them? | 13:00 |
| Xenguy | biab | 13:01 |
| drizzt | Xenguy: cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_governors | 13:04 |
| drizzt | echo "performance" > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor | 13:04 |
| drizzt | more info : https://docs.kernel.org/admin-guide/pm/cpufreq.html | 13:05 |
| drizzt | docs.kernel.org has a real lot of info about kernel interfaces :) | 13:06 |
| drizzt | (but feel free to ask here also, we all learn when replying to the questions, and by reading the replies :) | 13:07 |
| buZz | i dont think 'acpid' is really used nowadays? | 14:00 |
| buZz | seeing that most stuff you'd do through it is now also available in sysfs etc | 14:00 |
| buZz | like cpufreq? | 14:00 |
| Xenguy | drizzt, buZz, Thanks for the replies. I have to hit the road and will follow up this material later on. | 14:44 |
| gnarface | uh... pretty sure acpid is needed for sleep and hibernate, and nvidia drivers still require it for frequency scaling and fan control too | 15:02 |
| gnarface | at least in Xorg | 15:02 |
| gnarface | there might be some other things too | 15:03 |
| Xenguy | re: "<gnarface> uh... pretty sure acpid is needed for sleep and hibernate, and nvidia drivers still require it for frequency scaling and fan control too": | 16:14 |
| Xenguy | No nvidia here thankfully, but I have 3 working thinkpads ATM and sleep works on the 2 that don't have acpid installed; I don't *think* hibernate works on either. | 16:15 |
| Xenguy | Just checked the 3rd TP and it doesn't have acpid installed either, but this older model (the oldest of the 3) *does* hibernate without issues... | 16:17 |
| Xenguy | So just some data points there. | 16:17 |
| blizzow | Xenguy, that's been a perpetual problem of mine, I can't get suspend or hibernate working with any of my recent thinkpads unless I use something like fedora or ubuntu. | 16:18 |
| Xenguy | blizzow, It does seem to be a bit hit or miss, depending on hardware and other issues | 16:23 |
| blizzow | Is there a way to get the modern firefox package in excalibur? All I see is firefox-esr. | 16:48 |
| fsmithred | blizzow, you can download it from mozilla and unpack it somewhere in your home directory, then make a panel button to start it or edit a .desktop file to point to it and put it in the menu. | 16:50 |
| fsmithred | it's also possible to put it somewhere else for other users to run it if you have multiple accounts on the same computer. | 16:51 |
| blizzow | fsmithred, I know I can do a manual install. :/ My /opt and /usr/local directories are getting filled with appimages and manual installs. It's getting to the point that package managers are useless and updating software is a pain in the arse. That's why I was hoping for a package from a repo. | 17:00 |
| fsmithred | What does the latest firefox have that ff-esr does not? | 17:15 |
| fsmithred | the fixes in 131 are already in sid | 17:18 |
| fsmithred | ceres | 17:19 |
| blizzow | newer firefox profiles are not backwards compatible to ESR. Losing all settings, bookmarks, plugins and ability to sync across devices. | 17:22 |
| djph | You're talking about physically movint ~/.mozilla, aren't you? | 17:46 |
| blizzow | Not really, I'm wondering where the latest firefox package is for excalibur. If it's not there, I'm wondering why latest firefox is not available for an upcoming release. | 17:55 |
| djph | because debian / devuan use -esr | 17:57 |
| djph | If you're talking about using "FF Sync" or whatever it's called; that works fine between ESR and regular ... | 17:58 |
| metala | on the firefox topic, can / should we have the Privacy Preserving Attribution disabled by default and allow it only as an opt-in? | 18:04 |
| rwp | I am running Mozilla's self-updating Firefox installed, for various reasons, and it works well, therefore I recommend it. | 18:05 |
| rwp | I don't know if this is actually a problem for people who need to interact with Slack or not but recently saw this: https://web.archive.org/web/20240229145451/https://slack.com/intl/en-gb/help/articles/1500001836081-Slack-support-life-cycle-for-operating-systems-app-versions-and-browsers | 18:05 |
| rwp | It said on 27 Aug 2024 these words: "The support cycle for Firefox follows Mozilla's Rapid Release schedule and excludes the Extended Support Release (ESR) schedule." | 18:06 |
| rwp | Which I found pretty shocking. But I see that the current version today does not say that anymore. They must have taken pushback on not supporting ESR. | 18:06 |
| rwp | Xenguy, Your Desktop Environment is almost certainly intercepting the laptop power control buttons and acting upon them so they are working through your DE. When ACPI is installed those keys produce ACPI events. Prior to Desktop Environments intercepting them these actions were handled through the ACPI system. | 18:09 |
| rwp | On VMs the host controls still send ACPI events for power off and reboot and therefore VMs still require the acpid to be installed in order to shutdown and reboot. Otherwise KVM can only force off like pulling the power cord out of the system. | 18:10 |
| drizzt | blizzow: why not use ceres instead of havin /usr/local filled with manual packages ?? | 20:15 |
| drizzt | rwp: self-updating ? | 20:16 |
| drizzt | you mean installed outside of distribution ? | 20:16 |
| rwp | Correct. Mozilla's Firefox installation is writable by you the user using it. Firefox periodically updates itself. It will then notify that it has an update installed and needs to restart in order to switch to it. | 20:20 |
| drizzt | well ... personally I do not understand this usage of softwares outside of the packaging system, but I may be an old fool | 20:22 |
| rwp | By way of a little more explanation maybe let me say that all of the files are kept in the firefox install directory, a location you select, with the one exception that Desktop Environments need the firefox.desktop config file to know how to add it to the DE menu. | 20:23 |
| drizzt | it's sad not to use the benefits of a distribution, both for the security, installed size, and comunity advantages | 20:23 |
| rwp | Since the files are writable by you and the program is running as you then it can update itself. It notifies when this occurs. You can choose to restart then or you can keep doing whatever it is you are doing until later when you decide to do it. | 20:24 |
| rwp | Believe me I am a huge advocate for the Devuan Stable release suite. Many advantages. But distros do not support web browsers very well. They don't. The problem is that the web browsers are updating all of the time. It's impossible to keep up. It's super hard to keep a stable release suite. That's why there is the Firefox ESR. | 20:25 |
| drizzt | ho, I understand the process, but this doesn't make it interesting | 20:25 |
| rwp | And web sites on the other end are continuously thrashing on their side too. Those two ends are thrashing together often forcing a move forward. Depending upon what you are doing and what sites you need to browse. | 20:26 |
| rwp | To put things in perspective I use emacs for IRC in a text terminal like right now and most often when someone pastes a URL I most often open it in eww a text mode browser and when that works I am very happy and that's what I use. But I also need to use a graphical browser on sites that just don't work unless I use a very recent version of $BROWSER which might be chromium. | 20:27 |
| rwp | Because Google's Chrome has around 85% of the browser usage. Therefore web sites are targeting the Google Chrome user. Which is a terrible monoculture situation. I both prefer Firefox for the better keybinding reason but also to fight against the monoculture. | 20:29 |
| rwp | You might console yourself that Mozilla is producing a very small software distribution and this just uses that distribution for this one program. | 20:31 |
| Xenguy | rwp, TIL, had no idea that was the case. Do you recommend installing ACPI on (non-VM) laptop environments, or ...? | 20:58 |
| rwp | Xenguy, I always install acpid and acpi-support-base everywhere. It's just a basic system infrastructure in my mind. However I know that many DEs will intercept keys that used to be handled by ACPI. But if I Control-Alt-F1 to get to the vt console then there is no DE and there only the ACPI framework functions. | 21:03 |
| Xenguy | rwp, Makes sense to me, and I trust your judgment, so I will get this installed soon. | 21:08 |
| rwp | You haven't suffered any ill effects of not having it. But it also won't cause trouble having it installed. Things like the power button produce an ACPI power-button event and then the acpi action handles powering off, or sleeping, as configured. | 21:09 |
| rwp | On a headless VM is the place where it is most needed. It's headless. No Desktop Environment. That's 99.44% of all servers out there. And as a VM say running libvirt then using libvirt to trigger a power button to power down the system sends an acpi event. Which requires acpid and acpi-support-base to handle it and to shutdown. Otherwise one can only log into it to shutdown gracefully. | 21:10 |
| Xenguy | Does it ever require any manual configuration to get sleep or hibernation going? | 21:10 |
| drizzt | rwp: the part I do not understand is why use appimages (or equivalent) on a system which provides up-to date and more effective and secure solutions | 21:11 |
| rwp | I think the default is to power off when tapping the power button. | 21:11 |
| drizzt | latest firefox is 131, which is available from firefox APT repositories | 21:12 |
| drizzt | and firefox version in devuan is 129 ... not that old ... | 21:13 |
| rwp | Xenguy, I browsed around /etc/acpi/* and that's the default. On my Thinkpad there is Fn+[moon icon] to sleep on my X220. My X270 uses Fn+4 (no idea why 4) to trigger sleep. Those call pm-suspend. My X220 has a key Fn+[disk icon] which calls pm-hibernate. | 21:13 |
| drizzt | ESR version is 115, older, OK | 21:14 |
| rwp | drizzt, Projects that are not packaged for a distro most often make the best use of appimages. For example the Rockbox installer is distributed as an appimage. And then that one file can be used on most of the distros. And it is not packaged for any of them. https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/RockboxUtility#Download | 21:15 |
| Xenguy | rwp, Does your X220 (I have one too) hibernate successfully? | 21:16 |
| rwp | The Mozilla Firefox is not distributed as an appimage. I don't think appimages can be easily self-updated. Of appimages, flatpacks, snaps, the appimages seem the most portable and robust to me. The only one I ever use is the Rockbox installer though I know there are many more. | 21:17 |
| rwp | Xenguy, Yes. Hibernates okay. No problem. Most importantly it resumes from hibernate no problem too! :-) | 21:17 |
| Xenguy | Indeed. Okay will check that tonight too. | 21:17 |
| rwp | Mine uses a fully encrypted disk in the standard way with LVM. | 21:17 |
| Xenguy | Me too | 21:17 |
| rwp | I have more physical swap configured than RAM so that it can hold the entire RAM image. | 21:18 |
| rwp | Upon resume it will prompt using LUKS to decrypt and resume from where it was hibernated. It's a full power off state. Most of my use though is with suspend to ram. | 21:19 |
| Xenguy | I'll need to check the specs but I used to use the old formula 'swap = RAM * 2' (I think) | 21:19 |
| drizzt | rwp: the problem is that appimages and the like are the exact opposite of what a distribution is. They are getting momentum because people want "easy" and "immediate" stuf, but it does not make these any less stupid (my point of view at least) But this is off-topic. | 21:22 |
| rwp | Appimages are more like Docker containers. They are a bundle of EVERYTHING. And have the same problems too. | 21:33 |
| rwp | Xenguy, I also have the pm-utils package installed and that includes pm-hibernate which is managing the hibernate to disk work. (Though one can echo something into /proc/something and do it manually too.) | 21:35 |
| Xenguy | drizzt, I completely agree. | 21:35 |
| Xenguy | rwp, I have pm-utils and I actually just type 'pm-suspend' and 'pm-hibernate' at a root prompt. | 21:36 |
| drizzt | rwp: right appimages are as useless as docker images, and as much at the opposite of what linux distribution is | 21:42 |
| rwp | Not useless. Just limited in scale. Useful for the Rockbox installer I mentioned. | 21:43 |
| rwp | Fn+F4 has the moon icon to suspend to ram. I am going to test the Fn+F12 icon right now which I haven't used for a while to verify. And I am using that machine right now for IRC so if I don't return quickly you will know why. :-) | 21:43 |
| rwp | And I am back. It still works. | 21:46 |
| Xenguy | K, will test my X220 tonight when I get home. | 21:47 |
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