| onefang | repo.jing.rocks can be a tiny bit unreliable, but not very often. I get emails about it from apt-panopticon. Right now I need to fix apt-panopticon itself, then put the Indian instance back, now that it's done moving. | 02:05 |
|---|---|---|
| onefang | apt-panopticon is fixed now. B-) | 02:42 |
| nomia | gnarface: (: thx but i don't think i want to solder this thing | 06:19 |
| gnarface | nomia: you don't have to solder anything, i do this all the time with other arm boards. you just wrap the wires around the post or get some hook clips or something like that | 06:30 |
| gnarface | the other end you attach to a usb adapter | 06:30 |
| gnarface | something like a ft232r | 06:31 |
| gnarface | ft2322rl? | 06:33 |
| nomia | i don't think i have a usb adapter for serial | 06:35 |
| gnarface | yea, that's the part you need to get | 06:35 |
| gnarface | something like this, but you can probably find something cheaper: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12731 | 06:36 |
| gnarface | usually you just need any 3.3v serial to usb adapter | 06:36 |
| gnarface | anyway, there's a couple more steps to it than just plugging it in but i'm pretty sure i could walk you through them if you can at least find the right pins | 06:38 |
| nomia | k | 06:47 |
| nomia | i see the pins and i think i can connect to them right thru the case if i have the right adapter | 06:50 |
| cousin_luigi | plasma41: Yeah, I suppose I'll have to do it from ifupdown | 07:03 |
| rwp | nomia, The confusing thing for installing on a Pi is that one needs to select the correct two images, then concatenate them together, then boot the resulting image from an SD card. | 07:45 |
| gnarface | rwp: we think that part is covered successfully, and it's actually booting but the display just isn't working | 07:46 |
| rwp | gnarface, I actually transferred here from another channel where nomia asked me a question about it earlier. That's why I jumped in here with that. | 07:47 |
| rwp | The HDMI output is not displaying? Not even the initial power on part? | 07:48 |
| nomia | not for devuan | 07:55 |
| nomia | for older armbian dostro's it boots and then the display goes off | 07:55 |
| nomia | for devuan it never even turns the display on | 07:56 |
| nomia | (: right now i am playing with madness | 07:56 |
| nomia | i can't read the tiny text in video so i am trying to catch the screen in a photo | 07:57 |
| nomia | (: it's like trying to catch a cat doing something cute | 07:57 |
| nomia | 500 blurry photos and 500 photos of a black screen 1 second too late | 07:57 |
| nomia | i am going to try making the room as dark as possible | 07:59 |
| rwp | Before Devuan boots is not Devuan but the boot firmware on the Pi. If it isn't showing anything then somethings wrong with the pi itself. | 08:02 |
| onefang | Might help if this conversation wasn't spread across two channels. | 08:06 |
| rwp | What's the other channel? Hasn't it converged here? | 08:08 |
| onefang | #devuan-arm has the other half of the conversation. | 08:13 |
| rustyaxe | If its coming up on the network, ssh in and take a look? | 08:18 |
| nomia | it reboots so fast i didn't even bother plugging in the network | 08:20 |
| avir327 | nomia: The logs should be accessible, when you mount the SD Card at another computer. And another thing: Do you have a sufficiently strong / stable power supply? This had been causing a lot of issues for me, especially when having additional periphery connected. | 08:31 |
| nomia | i think so | 08:34 |
| nomia | i am using a big hp 5.1 v supply that can run a raspberry pi 3 | 08:35 |
| rrq | is overwriting mmcblk0 fine on that device? I bricked my arm device doing that ... (it got some key store messed up) | 08:39 |
| nomia | idk | 08:40 |
| nomia | i try to let it run a long time before i turn off the power | 08:41 |
| nomia | in case it is doing stuff | 08:41 |
| nomia | i am trying to get this huge video file off my phone in case i can zoom in enuf to read the boot msgs | 08:42 |
| systemdlete | trying to write a rules file for a couple of usb devices. I am working off https://wiki.debian.org/apcupsd, but maybe it is out of date, idk. | 09:53 |
| systemdlete | when I run udevadm control --reload, and then run the 2 invocations of trigger, no new device files show up anywhere under /dev. | 09:53 |
| systemdlete | obviously, I am doing something wrong, but I have no idea what. | 09:54 |
| systemdlete | So I found this (helpful...) guide: https://www.gilesorr.com/blog/udev-basics.html | 09:54 |
| systemdlete | but I'm not seeing any output in the RUN= log file. | 09:54 |
| systemdlete | the object is to create 2 unique device files, one for each usb device (UPS's, if you must know) | 09:55 |
| systemdlete | I was able to get this working a whiles ago, maybe 5-10 years ago, with the support of a friendly person in the centos channel. | 09:57 |
| * systemdlete always thought one of the guiding principles of *nix was "if it ain't broken, don't break it." | 09:57 | |
| systemdlete | Apparently, at least some of the rules for writing rules files have changed. Maybe not recently, but at some points. | 09:58 |
| rrq | there's "udevadm info" stuff when the daemon is started? | 10:00 |
| systemdlete | I don't know. I haven't tried restarting the daemon. Only reload. | 10:00 |
| systemdlete | I will try that, though. | 10:01 |
| rrq | mmm hould be there when the usb is plugged in | 10:01 |
| systemdlete | oh. | 10:02 |
| systemdlete | well, I haven't actually gone so far as doing that. | 10:02 |
| systemdlete | how do I restart udev daemon? there is no /etc/init.d script I can see... | 10:02 |
| rrq | "service eudev restart" | 10:03 |
| systemdlete | oh that's right. It got renamed; forgot about that. | 10:03 |
| systemdlete | It restarts quietly. Perhaps you mean messages in syslog? | 10:04 |
| systemdlete | no logs updated in /var/log | 10:05 |
| rrq | I referred to the "udevadm info" commands from that wiki page, in "Determine the serial numbers..." | 10:05 |
| systemdlete | oh | 10:05 |
| systemdlete | yes, plenty of output | 10:06 |
| systemdlete | that was never an issue, just fyi | 10:06 |
| rrq | that info should be handled by the "generic" rules | 10:06 |
| rrq | you want other ruls that RUN something? | 10:07 |
| systemdlete | The output is similar, although the manufacturer is different | 10:07 |
| systemdlete | <systemdlete> the object is to create 2 unique device files, one for each usb device | 10:07 |
| systemdlete | so, e.g., maybe /dev/usb/ups-1 and /dev/usb/ups-2 | 10:08 |
| rrq | you mean symlinks like in the example? | 10:08 |
| systemdlete | right | 10:08 |
| systemdlete | let me show you my rules file | 10:08 |
| rrq | yes | 10:09 |
| systemdlete | https://dpaste.com/FSVCXLT9P | 10:09 |
| systemdlete | Keep in mind, I've been testing things here, so the file doesn't always look like that | 10:09 |
| systemdlete | I commented out the 2 lines that are supposed to look like the example on the wiki page | 10:10 |
| systemdlete | crap | 10:10 |
| systemdlete | that isn't even how it looks now... | 10:10 |
| systemdlete | hold on | 10:10 |
| systemdlete | well, for now, just ignore the last line. Imagine the first 2 lines are uncommented. | 10:11 |
| systemdlete | that is as close as I could make it look for my scenario | 10:12 |
| rrq | ok.. note that ATTR(blah) refers to an attribute of the exact tree node, whereas ATTRS(blah) refers to all attributes following the parent chain | 10:12 |
| rrq | the wiki page uses ATTRS | 10:12 |
| systemdlete | right, exactly... | 10:12 |
| systemdlete | so the exact tree node (first one in output of udevadmin output) | 10:13 |
| systemdlete | matches the values I am giving | 10:13 |
| systemdlete | so I used ATTR, is that right? | 10:13 |
| rrq | mmm usually safer to use ATTRS ... it was a while since I messed with this though | 10:15 |
| systemdlete | ok, I've tried it that way also. no love | 10:15 |
| systemdlete | and also, there seems to be 2 spaces at the end of the serial numbers. So I tried including the spaces for the matching. | 10:16 |
| systemdlete | still, nothing... | 10:16 |
| systemdlete | I tried attr/attrs with spaces/nospaces (all 4 combos) and none worked | 10:16 |
| systemdlete | so then, I tried playing with the matching by using that guide I found (where they suggest using a RUN= thingy) | 10:17 |
| rrq | the links are set up relative /dev/ (if they work) | 10:17 |
| systemdlete | find /dev -name 'ups-*' shows nothing | 10:18 |
| systemdlete | And those "-v" options to the trigger commands do nothing special, either. | 10:19 |
| nomia | stupid systemd | 10:21 |
| nomia | root@nomia:/mnt/sdcard/var/log/journal | 10:21 |
| nomia | $ ls -All | 10:21 |
| nomia | total 0 | 10:21 |
| systemdlete | rrq: Should I be including the spaces at the end of the serial numbers? Seems safer to do so | 10:22 |
| systemdlete | that way they should exactly match, I'd think | 10:22 |
| rrq | probably not, but use a * as wildcard jic | 10:22 |
| systemdlete | can I do that? | 10:22 |
| nomia | avir327: do u know another place to look for systemd logs? | 10:23 |
| rrq | systemdlete: yes wilcard is allowed | 10:23 |
| systemdlete | wow | 10:23 |
| systemdlete | https://dpaste.com/9AFLHGKLC | 10:24 |
| systemdlete | see if this is better? | 10:24 |
| systemdlete | just tried it again with ATTR= instead of ATTRS= (hey, I'm just trying diff things) | 10:25 |
| rrq | are there other links set for these devices? | 10:27 |
| systemdlete | well, there's a couple of hiddev files in /dev/usb | 10:27 |
| systemdlete | I think one is for mouse and other for keyboard, but I'm not really sure | 10:27 |
| rrq | (I think udev is an awfully difficult programming language) | 10:29 |
| systemdlete | no disagreement here | 10:29 |
| rrq | have you tried naming the file 10-... to make it early and/or 99-... to make it late? | 10:30 |
| systemdlete | no... there are only 2 rules files in the directory | 10:31 |
| systemdlete | or do these get intermixed with the ones in /lib/udev/lib/rules.d? | 10:31 |
| rrq | yes those are combined with all rules files | 10:31 |
| systemdlete | and sorted together? | 10:31 |
| rrq | and /etc/.. names shadow same-named /lib/.. ones | 10:32 |
| * rrq needs to drop off here .. | 10:33 | |
| systemdlete | I moved my file to 99-ups.rules | 10:33 |
| systemdlete | no difference though. ok, thanks | 10:33 |
| systemdlete | have a good day/night/morning/afternoon/holiday/vacation/whatever | 10:33 |
| systemdlete | appreciate your help, as always | 10:34 |
| avir327 | nomia: No, I actually never had to offline-access systemd logs. Did you look for /var/log/messages? Not sure, but it might be still there for backward compatibility. | 10:48 |
| nomia | avir327: no /var/log/messages in systemd | 11:30 |
| nomia | but i found out that armbian will boot in rescue mode if i edit the symlinks | 11:31 |
| nomia | i had to edit /etc/shadow to set a passwd | 11:31 |
| * rrq back | 11:48 | |
| djph | heyo rrq | 11:48 |
| rrq | systemdlete: check "udevadm test /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:14.0/usb1/1-2 ... though with your "pathname" ... it might give somehting | 11:50 |
| systemdlete | with the udevadm test, it created the device file! | 12:34 |
| systemdlete | rrq: In fact, I can see udevadm test creating the device symlink | 12:36 |
| systemdlete | I know I should not need to do this, but I am thinking of rebooting. | 12:48 |
| systemdlete | I will try that... bbs | 12:48 |
| cores | I'm using XFCE, and I think my system is going into suspend after 6 hours because of this setting https://ibb.co/Tk76hbd is that true and how can I stop it? Thanks. | 16:02 |
| unixman_home | cores, it's been a while since I ran XFCE, but I will try to assist. that looks like it may be the [On Battery] power setting. Are you on battery when this happens? What are the options in the drop down? What does the [Plugged in] setting look like? | 16:18 |
| cores | unixman_home: that was the plugged in setting. here is the battery setting https://ibb.co/52dNk6R | 16:22 |
| cores | the real problem is my system doesn't seem to be waking from suspend. i can deal with that later but for now I'm trying to stop the system from going into suspend in the first place | 16:23 |
| unixman_home | What are the other options in the drop down? | 16:33 |
| unixman_home | I seem to recall that [Plugged in] power management would be disabled if the slider were all the way to the left. But I don't have a XFCE box to test that with at this point. | 16:35 |
| cores | There are only two options in that drop down: Suspend and Hibernate | 16:36 |
| unixman_home | Okay. Anyway, time for me to login for work. Good luck. | 16:36 |
| mathew | Hi, after some time my bluetooth mouse is stuttering in devuan kde. If i turn it off and on again it works again. I did try two diffrent bluetooth models and they behave similar, so I started to think about some software / driver issue? Which logs should i check? | 19:05 |
| wato | Hello everyone. My system is currently with 500mb of ram free and swap is full. Im checking the processes with btrop, but the top process by memory usage is only using 400mb. Is there a more precise way of checking memory usage? | 19:40 |
| wato | I have 32gb ram, and almost all of it is full. | 19:41 |
| cores | btrop? you mean btop? | 19:49 |
| rwp | If any web browser is running that's my first goto suspect. I don't even think twice. I kill the web browser and that's almost always the culprit. | 19:52 |
| wato | btop yes | 19:52 |
| wato | I killed the browser and it was the same | 19:52 |
| wato | wait | 19:52 |
| wato | it was tidal-hifi | 19:53 |
| wato | -.- | 19:53 |
| rwp | What's tidal-hifi? | 19:53 |
| wato | Its a chromium app | 19:53 |
| wato | i still have high memory usage, it went down from 31 to 18 | 19:54 |
| rwp | I also run htop, then sort by virtual memory size, and sort by resident set size. That identifies memory hog processes too. | 19:54 |
| wato | on it | 19:54 |
| wato | What is Resident size? | 19:55 |
| rwp | Virtual memory size is the entire memory space allocated to a process. RSS Resident Set Size is the memory that is resident in RAM and not on swap. | 19:55 |
| wato | I see | 19:56 |
| wato | nothing out of the ordinary | 19:57 |
| wato | system is at 16gb ram usage with only konversation running | 19:57 |
| rwp | Total virtual size used to be a good indicator. But Linux memory overcommit means that some programs, I am looking at you Java, and some programmers, also eyeing Java programmers, will "pre-allocate" HUGE amounts of memory. That's a malloc(). But it isn't actually allocated. Not until copy on write causes it to exist. | 19:57 |
| wato | that explains a lot | 19:57 |
| rwp | With linux memory overcommit malloc() and fork() never fail. Regardless of how much memory is actually available. | 19:58 |
| wato | i have 10 processes of "Xorg -nolisten tcp:0 vt1 -keeptty - auth /tmp/serverauth.HzlHkcw826 " using 125M each | 19:58 |
| wato | wait | 19:59 |
| wato | 922M each in virtual memory | 19:59 |
| wato | 125M in resident | 19:59 |
| rwp | But then later as programs want to modify memory accessing any of those memory pages causes a normal memory trap on the not yet allocated page. The kernel allocates it. If it can. If the kernel can't actually allocate memory at the time it is need then it calls the OOM out of memory killer. | 19:59 |
| Wonka | rwp: until someone tries to use the memory and the OOMNomNom attacks... | 19:59 |
| rwp | Are you possibly seeing threads of a single process? You probably only should have one X server running. Though I am running two concurrently here, I'm a little odd that way. | 20:00 |
| rwp | In htop threads can be hidden with 'H'. | 20:00 |
| wato | indeed | 20:01 |
| wato | Sorry for my noobie mistake | 20:01 |
| rwp | The problem I have with the OOM Killer is that it is effectively a kill -9 without giving the process any way to clean up temporary files or to log the occurance in any way. Just "poof!" The proces is removed from the os run queue and vanishes. | 20:01 |
| wato | If that is the case | 20:02 |
| wato | on a reboot the memory usage should come back to normal? | 20:02 |
| wato | i'm not even sure if my system uses this much ram without doing nothing | 20:02 |
| rwp | Yes of course. Because a reboot has killed everything. | 20:02 |
| wato | Could Smart Access Memory have anything to do with this? | 20:03 |
| rwp | Sorry but I am timeslicing here with stuff in real life. And I don't know what Smart Access Memory is. | 20:03 |
| wato | Oh no worries | 20:04 |
| fsmithred | neither do I, but I'm suspicious of any dumb things that call themselves smart. | 20:04 |
| wato | fsmithred: haha | 20:04 |
| wato | Is a technology by AMD that allows the CPU to access directly de GPU memory | 20:05 |
| wato | the* GPU memory* | 20:05 |
| wato | I will reboot and check if this ammount memory usage is still on | 20:05 |
| wato | lol, only 1gb of memory usage | 20:07 |
| wato | something was definetly wrong | 20:07 |
| djph | rwp: as opposed to being nice, and letting that bad process scrap the entire machine ... s'pose there's a balance-point somewhere, but I'm certainly not good enough to express it | 20:08 |
| djph | "Smart Access Memory(tm)" is basically AMD's implementation of shared system/video RAM (i.e. "we're gonna cheap out and make it sound cool, lol") | 20:09 |
| wato | rwp: If it happens again i will come back with more evidence. Thank you for the insight on memory usage and htop. | 20:09 |
| rwp | So is that where the GPU does not have dedicated video memory but steals memory from the system RAM? | 20:09 |
| rwp | JFTR but things don't just happen out of control normally. It's only normal for web browsers to take over my machine consuming all memory. But... Last time I had that happen to me I started closing browser tabs and counting. I had 160 browser tabs open. | 20:11 |
| * rwp hangs my head in shame | 20:11 | |
| wato | rwp: omg, how do you even get to that point | 20:12 |
| djph | rwp: I believe so, yes. Unless I'm getting my "stupid things that sound good for you" wrong again :) | 20:12 |
| rwp | Slowly. Very slowly. One tab at a time. And the browsers are vary good about restoring the session after a reboot. | 20:12 |
| rwp | Some systems do have GPUs without RAM using system RAM. That's been a thing forever. But (wato don't listen) that's a very low end cheapo system thing. It's terrible all around. I have always avoided it. | 20:13 |
| wato | djph: Nvidia calls it "Resizable BAR" | 20:13 |
| cores | rwp: can you report that to Tidal? | 20:14 |
| wato | I think that the technology is more like CPU being able to pull data from Disk into VRAM without the need to loading to system memory first | 20:15 |
| rwp | Real life calls me away... | 20:15 |
| djph | wato: nope, that's "DMA". | 20:17 |
| djph | This one seems to allow messing with the PCIe Base Address Registry ... who knows anymore | 20:18 |
| djph | oh, that's just the graphics apeture. | 20:18 |
| wato | djph: you are right! | 20:19 |
| djph | JFC, needing 6 different searches to get to the bottom of it without all the "herpaderp turn it on and get 90 billion FPS for free!" morons :( | 20:20 |
| wato | hahaha | 20:20 |
| wato | It doesnt even help that much | 20:20 |
| wato | And some games even runs a few fps lower | 20:20 |
| siewca | wato: How many usage memory are buffers in your case? | 20:53 |
| _ds_ | FWIW, radv has a switch for enabling some resized BAR optimisations: “RADV_PERFTEST=sam” | 20:53 |
| _ds_ | (probably doesn't make much difference) | 20:53 |
| systemdlete | rrq: I found that rebooting did help--the devices did get created upon bootup. And I am aware that reboot should not be necessary. But somehow, there is something not working with attempting to update /dev without rebooting. | 21:38 |
| systemdlete | I was able to follow the rest of the instructions on that page, and I now have 2 distinct instances of apcupsd running. Thank you for your help. | 21:39 |
| systemdlete | One thing I note, and I think I recall this issue from waaay back when all of this worked without issue: One of the devices specifies the manufacturer as "APC" and the other as "American Power Conversion" -- not a big deal, but it took me several attempts to realize it. | 21:42 |
| systemdlete | I could likely have done without that parameter altogether, since the vendor and product ids are probably sufficient to distinguish them | 21:42 |
| systemdlete | On to my next question: I am noticing that thunderbird always comes up with the calendar tab open. I do use the calendar function of tbird in some environments, but not in others. It is a bit annoying to have to force the tab closed upon starting it each time. | 21:44 |
| systemdlete | This is only a recent phenom, one more in the series of never-ending tweaks to the UI, most of which I could have survived without. | 21:45 |
| systemdlete | Anyone know how to disable the calendar? I've looked through the about:config options and don't see anything that seems relevant, but then again, when I say I looked I mean skimmed. There are a buttload of options, even when filtering. | 21:47 |
| data41201 | systemdelete: On the toolbar then Add-ons and disable lightning in the extensions section - https://support.mozilla.org/de/questions/1075275 | 22:19 |
| systemdlete | data41201, where is the "toolbar?" The navbar on the left? | 22:21 |
| systemdlete | I had the toolbar disabled (default now). I go to add-ons, but there is nowhere to disable lightning. Some of the hits I got from ddg searching say that lightning is integrated with tbird these days. | 22:24 |
| systemdlete | (btw, I am running tbird 115.10.1) | 22:25 |
| data41201 | I don't currently have Thunderbird installed. I just remembered that the calendar was called "Lightning" and you could deactivate the addon. | 22:33 |
| systemdlete | could, as in past tense apparently. They continually change the UI, not necessarily because it's necessary. | 22:34 |
| systemdlete | So, I appreciate your help, but I think I might have to file a bug on this. | 22:34 |
| systemdlete | (unless you find something I've done wrong here) | 22:35 |
| data41201 | systemdlete: As I said, I'm no TB expert. I just remembered how it used to be. Im using ncal :-) | 22:45 |
| systemdlete | data41201, what are you using for email? | 22:59 |
| gnarface | hmm, i'm pretty sure there's a way to keep it from opening the calendar panel every time, but i forget what i did... | 23:00 |
| onefang | I've recently woken up and reading the backlog. Thanks for pointing to btop, looks useful. | 23:25 |
| data41201 | systemdlete: I have been using Alpine for a few years and a few weeks ago I switched to Mutt. | 23:26 |
| Paprika_ | hi bit of a noob question but how do I disable a service in sysvinit like I would with systemd? | 23:27 |
| onefang | As for Linux over committing, that might explain this one program I tried that always failed to allocate enough memory on start up and fell over. On my 256 GB super desktop, with most of that free. I have five similar programs that do the same job, they work fine. | 23:28 |
| phogg | Paprika_: to make it not start on boot you rm the S symlink from /etc/rc?.d/ where ? is your runlevel. You can use update-rc.d to do this for all runlevels e.g.: update-rc.d -f service-name remove | 23:28 |
| phogg | Paprika_: systemd has more than one kind of disabled, so it doesn't map one-to-one | 23:29 |
| Paprika_ | ah thanks | 23:29 |
| Paprika_ | yeah I'm trying to figure out how to stop tor from starting on boot | 23:29 |
| gnarface | Paprika_, phogg: sysv-rc-conf will also manage the symlinks but is probably easier to use for noobs | 23:30 |
| phogg | gnarface: fair enough, but I am not so familiar with it | 23:30 |
| Paprika_ | is there a command to see what runlevel it is? sudo system <service> status doesn't tell me | 23:30 |
| phogg | Paprika_: yes: runlevel | 23:30 |
| phogg | it should be 2 unless you changed it | 23:31 |
| gnarface | Paprika_: debian derivatives use #2 for everything, it's not like RedHat's stuff | 23:31 |
| Paprika_ | yes thanks that did the trick :) | 23:31 |
| Paprika_ | brb rebooting to see if it worked ;D | 23:31 |
| phogg | red had gave specific meanings to each runlevel and then systemd's runlevel-to-target logic hard coded those | 23:31 |
| phogg | s/had/hat/ | 23:32 |
| onefang | As for excess browser tabs, I used to wonder about people that have over 100 open. Now I use Simple Tab Groups, to manage dozens of groups, some of them with over 500 tabs, though typically only a few dozen tabs open at one time. | 23:32 |
| data41201 | Paprika_: sudo update-rc.d tor disable | 23:32 |
| Paprika_ | all good :) | 23:33 |
| Paprika_ | thanks! | 23:33 |
| onefang | For email I use neomutt, but the one from ASCII, coz later versions have a "let's mark random emails for deletion" bug. | 23:36 |
| onefang | All caught up! | 23:37 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: this is all i can come up with for disabling the calendar, and all i can remember having to do: https://support.mozilla.org/kn/questions/1374461 | 23:38 |
| gnarface | (the panel is still accessible, but it's not open by default anymore) | 23:38 |
| gnarface | if it's not "sticking" then maybe it's a bug in your version of thunderbird, i'm just using the one from daedalus | 23:39 |
| data41201 | I use the normal Mutt. So far I have not noticed any errors. Alpine looks tidier and you can make almost all the settings in the program itself. Linus Torvalds allegedly uses Alpine. | 23:46 |
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