| Guest54 | Joh. 3,16 | 07:28 |
|---|---|---|
| nongeek | Hi all | 11:41 |
| nongeek | Devuan aims to avoid "lock-in" by projects like systemd and aims to maintain compatibility with other init systems to avoid detaching Linux from other Unix systems. | 11:41 |
| nongeek | So, according to the developers, Linux is Unix? | 11:42 |
| hagbard | Linux is merely the kernel, the same as in all other Linux distros (hence they are called that), such as debian. | 11:45 |
| nongeek | Yes. | 11:45 |
| nongeek | So, Devuan is not GNU? | 11:45 |
| hagbard | And Devuan is merely Debian without systemd and its sticky tendrils creeping into every aspect of the system. | 11:46 |
| nongeek | What is the SystemD problem? | 11:47 |
| hagbard | It contains roughly the same amount and very same GNU software as most other Distros. | 11:47 |
| nongeek | I can't understand it. | 11:48 |
| nongeek | Is this a problem? | 11:50 |
| hagbard | Systemd started out as a replacement for the init system, and nowadays aims to replace most other sofware that makes the OS running under the hood, except the kernel. So you have a big agglomeration of software that tries to control everything. | 11:50 |
| nongeek | aha | 11:51 |
| nongeek | I guess Linus don't like it. | 11:51 |
| nongeek | All Debian packages are available in the Devuan? Can I use it as a server or...? | 11:53 |
| hagbard | Traditional philosophy in the unixoid ecosystem was for one piece of software to have one job, and to do that well. Not having one piece of software try to do several unrelated things at once. There are also various political aspects of the controversy, which I will not go into. | 11:53 |
| hagbard | Linus has not any role relavant to neither systemd nor its absence in Devuan. He is leads Linux, which is the project that develops the kernel. | 11:54 |
| hagbard | Yes, all Debian packages are available in Devuan (with very few exceptions), and you can use it as a server. | 11:55 |
| nongeek | I understand. | 11:57 |
| nongeek | The problem with the fork distros is that they will be disappear. | 11:57 |
| hagbard | See, yesterday I baked a pizza, despite knowing well that it will disappear. Yet, it was delicious all the time it lasted. | 12:03 |
| wikidasher | I don't see why devuan will dissapear | 13:06 |
| wikidasher | disappear* | 13:07 |
| wikidasher | There will always be a market for alternate init systems | 13:07 |
| wikidasher | see MX Linux, for example | 13:07 |
| al1r4d | nongeek: As long as systemd exist, there will be alternative ones. | 14:08 |
| nongeek | Tnx | 14:09 |
| nongeek | I guess systemD will be more popular. | 14:09 |
| Nrml | nongeek> The problem with the fork distros is that they will be disappear -> this doesn't seem to be the case with Devuan: the project (and its first release, Jessie) was launched on May 3th 2016, so it just made it to its 8th birthday and is going stronger than ever | 14:10 |
| Nrml | nongeek> I guess systemD will be more popular -> if you're looking for "popular", IMHO you shoudn't be using linux in the first place -- just go with Windows like all the Joneses. | 14:11 |
| nongeek | Thanks. | 14:12 |
| nongeek | But the ranking of this project is 33 | 14:12 |
| Nrml | My thinking is, by using Linux you're already on the "less popular" side of the aisle -- so you can just as well choose the best distro (which for me is Devuan hands-down) | 14:13 |
| Nrml | nongeek> But the ranking of this project is 33 -> Do you mean this? https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan | 14:14 |
| nongeek | Yes | 14:15 |
| Nrml | nongeek: OK, so quoting from there: "Popularity: 33 (246 hits per day), so it's just a "hits" rating (meaning, the number of accesses to that particular URL on the distrowatch.com server). | 14:16 |
| Nrml | This has very little to do even with "popularity" in a broader sense. | 14:17 |
| nongeek | How many people download this distro per day? | 14:17 |
| Nrml | I, for one, haven't accessed this webpage for years, despite my using Devuan in all my machines since the project started. And I bet it's the same for most people here | 14:18 |
| Nrml | nongeek> How many people download this distro per day? -> difficult to say, due to mirrors, CDNs, P2P-like (eg torrent) downloads, etc. | 14:18 |
| Nrml | But why is that a concern for you? | 14:19 |
| nongeek | But, admin must have it. | 14:19 |
| nongeek | So easy to count. | 14:19 |
| Nrml | nongeek> But, admin must have it. -> can you please clarify? | 14:19 |
| Nrml | Ah | 14:19 |
| Nrml | Not at all ;-) | 14:19 |
| nongeek | How many people download it per day? | 14:20 |
| Nrml | You see, "admin" can see only the server it admins. | 14:20 |
| Nrml | What about all the other servers (eg, mirrors)? | 14:20 |
| nongeek | Who is he\she? | 14:20 |
| nongeek | He\she can ask them. | 14:20 |
| nongeek | This is important. | 14:20 |
| Nrml | nongeek> He\she can ask them -> ask who? all the other admins on all the other servers he/she doesn't even know about? What about torrent downloads, where there isn't a server to speak of, much less an admin for it? | 14:22 |
| Nrml | what about CDNs? And so on. | 14:22 |
| nongeek | Sure. | 14:23 |
| nongeek | Just put normal download links. | 14:23 |
| Nrml | nongeek> This is important -> Can you please clarify why this is important for you? | 14:23 |
| Nrml | Most Linux users (myself included) couldn't care less about "popularity" (if we did, we would probably not be using Linux in the first place) | 14:24 |
| nongeek | Not really. | 14:24 |
| nongeek | Most users for distro mean fewer bugs. | 14:24 |
| Nrml | nongeek> Not really. -> again, why? | 14:24 |
| Nrml | nongeek> Most users for distro mean fewer bugs -> I fail to see why. If that was the case, Windows would have much less bugs than Linux -- but as we all know, it's the other way around. | 14:25 |
| Nrml | And Devuan is mostly Debian-based -- which means it benefits from all the bugfixes Debian gets. | 14:26 |
| Nrml | So, for example, let's have a look at the most "popular" distro, according to Distrowatch: https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mx | 14:27 |
| Nrml | It's also Debian-based. | 14:28 |
| Nrml | Ditto #2: https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint | 14:28 |
| Nrml | Debian itself is #4: https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=debian | 14:28 |
| Nrml | So, I wouldn't be selling Devuan short even by this "popularity" criterium that you think is so important. | 14:29 |
| Nrml | Bugfix-wise, Devuan benefits from almost all (like, 99.99%) of the bug fixes that Debian gets -- and from most of those other, Debian-based distros too, as they "upstream" their fixes up to Debian (meaning, they contribute these fixes back to Debian), so they end up in Devuan too. | 14:32 |
| Nrml | I hope to have provided you with enough reasons to not get too enthused by Devuan's #33 ranking on that "popularity" index, and will now stop as I have some stuff in RL that needs me. But if you need more, or have any other questions, just post them here or on the Devuan web forum (https://dev1galaxy.org) -- I will probably not be around but the Devuan community is great and someone will answer you. | 14:36 |
| * Nrml disappears on a puff of creosote-smelling smoke | 14:37 | |
| joerg | :-) | 14:50 |
| joerg | please also refer to https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=ranking instead of https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity the latter merely >>represent the average number of hits per day (HPD)<< | 14:54 |
| joerg | >>rank #4 Devuanrating: 9.16<< | 14:55 |
| joerg | >>7 Debian8.92<< | 14:56 |
| joerg | ;-) | 14:56 |
| Weeezy | which number indicates the better rank? the greater or lower? | 14:59 |
| joerg | the greater obviously :-) https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=ratings&distro=devuan | 15:04 |
| joerg | except you think of the rank, where #1 is best | 15:05 |
| joerg | rating is 9.16/10 | 15:05 |
| Weeezy | nice | 15:09 |
| Weeezy | I've been using devuan off and on since version .7 as I recall | 15:10 |
| hagbard | It's hosted on lots of different hosts by lots of different people, so there'd be only non-easy ways to count it. | 15:21 |
| hagbard | oh, 2l8, he left. | 15:21 |
| av6 | this is not important at all, but i've just spotted elogind spelled as eloging in https://gitea.devuan.org/devuan/elogind/commit/c5e7ba0c47ae95e2cf6fd48dc9353e8f333200c4 maybe someone could fix it or ping someone who can | 17:16 |
| unixman_home | Must be "loging" [sic] my e! :) | 19:08 |
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