| HimeHaieto | fsmithred: your statements are conflicting and don't seem to make any sense, so tbh I'm not even entirely sure how to respond to that | 01:32 |
|---|---|---|
| HimeHaieto | LeePen: I don't misunderstand merged - I know exactly what I'm doing, and I do in fact prefer to do that work manually myself (it's actually really not that much "work" tbh) | 01:33 |
| HimeHaieto | I've used merged for things like live installs and virtual machines, but I don't use it for my server, and don't plan to | 01:38 |
| rrq | why not? | 01:39 |
| onefang | Are we confusing /usr merge with http://deb.devuan.org/merged ? | 01:39 |
| HimeHaieto | I'm not at least (I'm talking about the latter, not /usr), but I'm responding to something from a day or two ago so you may be missing some context | 01:40 |
| rrq | so, why not ? | 01:42 |
| onefang | I've had Internet issues for the last month or so, likely things I have missed while I was offline. | 01:42 |
| onefang | Soooo, why not? | 01:43 |
| onefang | And how do you do that manually? | 01:44 |
| HimeHaieto | I'm not sure how much I want to rehash it, it doesn't particularly seem relevant to anything really | 01:44 |
| rrq | given that /merged is the repository while /devuan is not, it'd would kind of need a reason why you insist on not using /merged | 01:45 |
| onefang | If there's an issue, and your method works around that issue, then we'll want to know so we can fix the issue, and I'll want to know so I can build tests for it into apt-panopticon. | 01:45 |
| HimeHaieto | as for how you do it manually, it's pretty much just down to including the full set of debian repos like normal, but also the devuan ones (not http://deb.devuan.org/merged, but http://deb.devuan.org/devuan), and then just applying the appropriate apt pinning | 01:46 |
| HimeHaieto | I've been doing it that way since devuan first came to exist for jessie | 01:46 |
| rrq | http://deb.devuan.org/devuan is only of interest for "experimental", all else would be at http://deb.devuan.org/merged | 01:47 |
| HimeHaieto | works fine, but I've just been going back to my apt configs for cleanup that's been long overdue, and it's annoying that I still can't use oldstable/stable/testing, etc, vs chimaera/daedalus/excalibur, and having to make sure I manually update it appropriately each time there's a new release | 01:49 |
| onefang | "doesn't particularly seem relevant to anything really" so I'll be happy to just ignore your FrankenDevuan then, since it's not relevant. B-) | 01:49 |
| HimeHaieto | as has been pointed out, the whole point of merged is to not only be 100% binary compatible with debian packages, but to literally be exact copies mirrored from it, with the packages from the devuan repos replacing debian packages of the same name, or adding to them if for any reason they're new | 01:51 |
| HimeHaieto | I'm just replicating the creation of merged myself instead of using merged directly, so your comment doesn't make sense | 01:52 |
| rrq | well, /merged is the repository to use. If you use something else you may have problems. | 01:53 |
| HimeHaieto | not really, it's just (negligibly) more "work" | 01:54 |
| rrq | yes, really. | 01:54 |
| HimeHaieto | I'm not going to engage in some borderline fud argument over this | 01:54 |
| onefang | Less work than editing your sources to replace chimaera with daedalus once or twice a year? | 01:55 |
| HimeHaieto | you do you and don't worry about it | 01:55 |
| rrq | you simply should want to use /merge, and then use /merged, and then you don't have those problems. | 01:55 |
| golinux | You might miss the "banned packages" list and fubar your install? | 01:56 |
| golinux | Let him scramble his install . . . | 01:56 |
| HimeHaieto | onefang: while I can see your logic, the same pinning issues could apply even without debian, if for any reason you want to include multiple releases at once | 01:56 |
| brocashelm | and besides, it's *not* recommended to use devuan with any other distro's repos (debian, ubuntu, mint, etc.) | 01:57 |
| brocashelm | if you want to use debian packages, use debian | 01:57 |
| HimeHaieto | it'd be about including the repos for all of beowulf, chimaera, daedalus, excalibur, and ceres, and pinning down all but, say, daedalus so that apt doesn't actually go *install* anything from the others | 01:58 |
| HimeHaieto | and yes, there can be valid reasons for including alternate repos without actually installing from them | 02:00 |
| HimeHaieto | https://xkcd.com/386/ | 02:02 |
| HimeHaieto | s/wrong/disagreeing with me/ | 02:02 |
| HimeHaieto | onefang: to address your (valid!) concern on whether I may have found an issue that needs you to go make new tests, don't worry - I'm not aware of anything that could break and *require* what I'm doing...it's really just about personal choices, etc | 02:05 |
| HimeHaieto | if I do discover something as such, I'll be sure to let you know | 02:05 |
| bb|hcb | HimeHaieto: From what I understand, in the end if everything is done properly, you will have exactly the same package set as in /merged. Can you point one single thing that is not in /merged but your way of doing things allows? (asking from curiosity, because I do not see it) | 02:34 |
| HimeHaieto | you sort of answered your own question - if everything is done properly, there should be no installable packages doing things how I described vs what's in /merged (is the prepended slash the way we prefer to reference it?)...though one key distinction is that things being done properly doesn't refer to just one method or person | 02:47 |
| HimeHaieto | another key distinction (or rather caveat) is that the exact *version* of any given package may *not* necessarily be the same between the two methods at a given point in time | 02:48 |
| HimeHaieto | particularly noteworthy distinction to make for something like stable-security, for instance, where for a more mission critical server, you don't want any extra minutes worth of time that you're missing an important security update than is absolutely necessary | 02:49 |
| HimeHaieto | to highlight a point of consideration regarding the first distinction (again especially considering valuable servers), if the main thing that would separate your server as a debian vs devuan install comes down to say only 10 or 15 packages, you can actually easily see/query exactly what those divergent packages are, whereas you can't with merged | 02:52 |
| HimeHaieto | if stability/security is important enough to consider, 10-15 packages is comparatively very easy to run your own audit on, rather than essentially having to rely only on the work of a smaller and more niche (but awesome!) devuan team | 02:55 |
| HimeHaieto | no offence to devuan, it's great, but if you think about it in terms of what a facility or those running it may want to see/hear, it's hard to compete against the behemoth that is debian's team and associated support | 02:56 |
| HimeHaieto | take that and add an audit only for the select packages where your system needs to deviate from debian to essentially become devuan, and all can be good | 02:57 |
| HimeHaieto | bb|hcb: oops, should have added a reference when starting that reply | 02:58 |
| HimeHaieto | if I were to ever upgrade my personal laptop past debian squeeze (lol), then I might be using /merged there, because it's not a big/important server | 03:02 |
| rrq | to be clear: http://deb.devuan.org/merged *is* the devuan repo. Anything else you might be using is not. | 03:05 |
| HimeHaieto | I think you need to just take a step back, breathe, and spend your time on something more valuable | 03:08 |
| DelTomix | ^projection | 03:08 |
| brocashelm | pot calling the kettle black | 03:08 |
| HimeHaieto | no, I'm just saying there's no misunderstanding here, time was already spent thoroughly investigating things years ago to understand exactly what the options were and what everything means, and a decision was made accordingly | 03:11 |
| HimeHaieto | which means this was no mistake, and regardless of what may motivate anyone as such, they would not be likely to change someone's position on it | 03:13 |
| DelTomix | excellent. from what I've read - its not at all clear what you are saying - but I'm glad you are settled. Best wishes. | 03:14 |
| HimeHaieto | so if you want to just understand what led to it, that's one thing, but if the aim is to criticise or dissuade, it's honestly just a waste of time and I'm sure every person here would have better or more productive things to do | 03:14 |
| HimeHaieto | it's not a matter to offend or take offence over | 03:14 |
| HimeHaieto | deltomix: thanks, and to you, too | 03:15 |
| bb|hcb | HimeHaieto: Thanks for explaining :) I got your reasoning but disagree with it. Those are your servers after all, so going one way or another is your choice. | 03:31 |
| bb|hcb | Just a couple of notes for the bystanders: 1) devuan/merged IS debian -banned +forked +native packages 2) amprolla (the soft that produces the /merged repo) runs every 2 mins (and that is a fully automated process), so security updates from Debian (also all other updates) are going to be accessible in /merged for the deb.debian.org propagation delay +2mins +generation time +selected devuan | 03:42 |
| bb|hcb | mirror propagation. YMMV but I would consider that delay neglectible. | 03:42 |
| HimeHaieto | bb|hcb: I didn't say this, but three words: department of defence :p | 03:43 |
| HimeHaieto | regarding the ymmv/negligible part only | 03:43 |
| HimeHaieto | needless to say, we *are* talking niche use cases here | 03:44 |
| HimeHaieto | and that's fine | 03:44 |
| bb|hcb | The only place where Devuan may differ from Debian is the forked/native packages, because those require the respective maintainer action. TBH the more I know about the process in Debian, the less I am comfy in my sleep ;) :P | 03:44 |
| DelTomix | umm - and how many stages of delay in the pipeline before Debian releases the security update? and do you poll for updates every second? | 03:45 |
| HimeHaieto | true words on that last part, and I think they prolly apply to a *lot* of things in life o_0 | 03:45 |
| bb|hcb | Yep :) | 03:46 |
| bb|hcb | There was a joke how backups divide people - in 2 - the ones who know they need it, and the ones that are to come to know | 03:47 |
| bb|hcb | NB. There is no guarantee that either category has a backup... That is unimportant | 03:49 |
| HimeHaieto | what you said about backups is true, though I'm not sure I followed the thought process that brought them up | 03:50 |
| HimeHaieto | also, I think I've also heard it like this: the ones who know they need it, and the ones who are about to find out :p | 03:51 |
| HimeHaieto | pretty much the exact same though, just worded slightly differently | 03:51 |
| bb|hcb | Ah, just compare to security, it is quite similar :( | 03:52 |
| HimeHaieto | ah, gotcha | 03:53 |
| HimeHaieto | the best backups are multistage, too | 03:53 |
| HimeHaieto | preferably with one of the stages being off-site | 03:53 |
| Nietz | does anyone else have a history of using xkpasswd for passwords? | 16:14 |
| HimeHaieto | I can't say that I do, but what exactly is your situation? | 17:01 |
| HimeHaieto | ^ nietz | 17:01 |
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