| farmatito | hi to all this is a late night test | 00:12 |
|---|---|---|
| golinux | Dang he left! | 00:39 |
| mason | rrq: Could I trouble you to look at git? My saved password didn't work, and while the system said it was sending me a reminder or reset of some sort, it appears not to have. | 00:44 |
| mason | hitting it again now so it's fresh in the logs | 00:45 |
| mason | rrq: https://0x0.st/HQww.png just now | 00:45 |
| rrq | hmm I can't find any trace of your login attempt?? | 01:01 |
| Centurion_Dan | I've been just reading the *discussion* going on in the debian-devel mailing list about dropping initscripts and it's making me think that Devuan might need to start working towards increasing the resources to fork any and every package that drops init scripts rather then rely on the sure to be broken orphan init scripts package. | 01:02 |
| bb|hcb | I am thinking about automatic forking - like dget whatever, add the init script, butild... | 01:03 |
| bb|hcb | s/butild/build | 01:04 |
| bb|hcb | fwiw the response from Benda rulz | 01:04 |
| bb|hcb | rrq, mason: I will try to get that email now for myself to see how it goes... | 01:05 |
| Centurion_Dan | I see Debian is also has been having a debate on completing the /usr merge which will fundamentally boil down to Devuan. If they do force it, what will Devuan's response be? Do we fight it, fork it, or just move to becoming much more divergent from what Devuan is doing. | 01:24 |
| Centurion_Dan | Note, I have not been particularly active of late in Devuan, but still deeply care about it and rely on it for my own and many other customers desktop and server systems | 01:24 |
| Centurion_Dan | If there has already been decisions on these issues, I'd appreciate somebody catching me up. I don't have a massive bandwidth for reading massive discussion threads at the moment. | 01:26 |
| bb|hcb | We have been discussing usrmerge wide and long, if it is accepted, we have to follow | 01:28 |
| bb|hcb | The effort to undo it is immense | 01:28 |
| onefang | Fighting /usr merge just isn't worth the effort. Add a few symlinks, done. | 01:29 |
| rrq | personally I think fighting stupidity is always worth the effort. | 01:46 |
| rrq | of course, statistics tell me I won't win :( | 01:48 |
| onefang | Too much stupidity out there. lol | 01:49 |
| Centurion_Dan | So how many packages does it effect and how many of them are already forked. From what I recall it's mostly essential packages relating to sysvinit, shells and basic fileutils etc. I haven't looked that closely but surely it's no more then a dozen packages?? | 02:02 |
| Centurion_Dan | I also assume that for most of them the upstream sources remain unchanged in which case it's the debian patches/dpkg-buildpackage that is making the changes. | 02:04 |
| onefang | As I said, add a few symlinks, it's done. No problems. I've been running Chimeara that way since I installed it. | 02:05 |
| onefang | I gotta go outside for an hour or so now. | 02:06 |
| ballsystemlord | Usr-merge? Does anyone have a brief summary or link so I can read about it? | 02:11 |
| Xenguy | A starting point: https://salsa.debian.org/md/usrmerge/raw/master/debian/README.Debian | 02:18 |
| bgstack15 | Doesn't Devuan exist to be an init-freedom distro? Does /usr-merge meet that qualification? | 02:31 |
| mason | Centurion_Dan: I was thinking precisely that, about forking the packages, reading that same discussion, which frankly is why I'm here again. | 02:42 |
| mason | Centurion_Dan: Re: UsrMerge, while it doesn't actually solve anything, I don't care enough to avoid it if it didn't break dpkg. But it does. | 02:43 |
| mason | rrq: I'm going to make up an address and hit it so it shows up in the logs, or presumably will. Half a sec. | 02:44 |
| mason | https://git.devuan.org/rrq-this-is-me | 02:45 |
| mason | Just tried signing in with my saved password, Wed 28 Jun 2023 12:45:39 AM UTC | 02:45 |
| mason | and just hit the button for an email again | 02:46 |
| rrq | might help.. you'll need to sync with bb|hcb though; he went to bed I think :) | 02:46 |
| mason | FWIW, my current job (I left Red Hat as a protest) forced me to learn git and I find, to my shock and dismay, that I kind of like it. | 02:46 |
| mason | Ah, kk. bb|hcb ^ | 02:46 |
| rrq | there seems to be an issue with mailout from git.devuan.org and he's onto it (was :) | 02:49 |
| rrq | re usrmerge; the installer iso still runs Devuan's debootstrap with --no-merged-usr | 02:50 |
| mason | rrq: FWIW, my bad. I don't think I made it onto gitea. | 02:51 |
| rrq | and personally I have pin-prohibited the usrmerge package | 02:51 |
| mason | rrq: My current pinning: https://bpa.st/OYCIU | 02:53 |
| mason | I'd like to move that to src:systemd. | 02:54 |
| rrq | that's a good one :) I'll copy that | 02:56 |
| bb|hcb | rrq: Right, fighting and/or avoiding. The latter is more clever is certain scenarios | 02:56 |
| bb|hcb | bgstack15: IF and usrmerge and not related neither conflicting | 02:57 |
| mason | I suspect we'll see dpkg adapt before Trixie, and if that happens I won't care so much. But now, where there's annoying breakage, I'm not letting it onto my systems. | 02:58 |
| bb|hcb | usrmerge is stupid move with no gain, once complete, reverting it would mean rebuilding every package in non-merged env | 02:58 |
| bb|hcb | the other problem with it is that people will start interchangably using /bin and /usr/bin and that will break on umerged systems | 02:59 |
| bb|hcb | rrq: Devuan installer does debootstrap with --no-merged-usr and Debian's buildd are also unmerged, and unless that changes we are good to stay unmerged | 03:02 |
| bb|hcb | As soon as buildds become merged, we will have to rebuild * or get merged. FWIW rebuilding * will not solve all problems | 03:03 |
| * bb|hcb afk :) | 03:04 | |
| ballsystemlord | @Xenguy , thanks! | 03:31 |
| ballsystemlord | @Xenguy , thanks for the link. | 03:41 |
| Xenguy | ballsystemlord, My pleasure | 03:42 |
| ballsystemlord | Now what I want to know is why not just put link from /usr/bin and /usr/sbin to /bin /sbin ? | 03:43 |
| ballsystemlord | Like why are we doing it this way? | 03:43 |
| ballsystemlord | Instead of the reverse? | 03:43 |
| ballsystemlord | Nothing can go in /? | 03:43 |
| ballsystemlord | We want that free of clutter? It only contains about 12 directories as is. | 03:43 |
| ballsystemlord | My bad, 21. | 03:44 |
| Xenguy | ballsystemlord, I am mostly ignorant on the technical issues, but usually I can glean a sense of which way the wind is blowing | 03:44 |
| Xenguy | I don't know why they're really pushing for this, but I assume it's a desire to adopt a one-size-fits all approach | 03:45 |
| ballsystemlord | I'll stick around and see if other people understand more. | 03:45 |
| Xenguy | But really it seems like a continual, gradual Red Hatification of the Linux space | 03:46 |
| Xenguy | Good idea | 03:46 |
| golinux | Yhey are doing it because they don;t understand Linux. | 03:46 |
| Xenguy | I agree | 03:46 |
| golinux | Too many typos . . . need time afk | 03:46 |
| Xenguy | Or are more concerned about the *business/vendor* side of Linux | 03:46 |
| Xenguy | Certainly clueless about the 'spirit' of Linux, if you will | 03:47 |
| ballsystemlord | And the spirit is why we made it easy to avoid using an initrd when we have a separate /usr partition. | 03:48 |
| Xenguy | Vendors arguably have a business interest in making systems more rather than less opaque... | 03:51 |
| ballsystemlord | ^ | 03:51 |
| Xenguy | So the *design* of things is affected | 03:51 |
| onefang | mason does the simple few symlinks "fix" to usr merge fix dpkg? So far I haven't stumbled across anything that it doesn't fix. | 04:10 |
| onefang | I think the path of least resistance is to just go with the symlinks, and find out if anything actually breaks. | 04:11 |
| onefang | ballsystemlord: that's more or less exactly what my "few simple symlinks" fix is, except I go the other way. | 04:13 |
| ballsystemlord | I like that idea, though it grows root a bit. | 04:15 |
| ballsystemlord | ^ I mean the root FS. | 04:15 |
| onefang | Personally I'm not a fan of spreading directories around partitions. You always end up with "ran out of space here, but there's plenty there". | 04:32 |
| onefang | So growing root isn't a problem I'll have. B-) | 04:33 |
| onefang | So I think our choices are 1) use the symlinks and ONLY fork what breaks. 2) fork ALL packages broken by usr merge. Why do we keep going over and over option 2? Do 1, simples, get it over and done with. | 04:45 |
| ballsystemlord | I only asked why merging the directories was deemed necessary by debian folk in the first place. | 04:46 |
| onefang | I'm just saying that they have, and there's a simple solution that works, instead everyone keeps blathering on and on about it. | 04:49 |
| Xenguy | onefang, Gotta make the drama last, it's delicious dontchaknow | 05:01 |
| onefang | I blame the entertainment industry, for making us think the only entertaining thing is drama, so people want more of it in their lives. Just gimme comedy and music instead. B-) | 05:24 |
| mason | onefang: Yeah, for example, the first thing I did on upgrading a laptop to Bookworm was field a question from someone about whether a package was included or not. Let me see if I can find what I shared. | 06:17 |
| mason | Bah, can't remember what they wanted to find, but I said "which thing" and it gave me back a path, so I then said "dpkg -S thatpath" and dpkg said there was no match. I forget the specific detail but I think it went through alternatives, whatever it was, so I had two false hits where I had to know to modify the path myself for dpkg -S to work. | 06:20 |
| mason | I do this often enough that it was a bit annoying. | 06:20 |
| mason | onefang: The dpkg folks list more problem scenarios: https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr | 06:20 |
| bgstack15 | Devuan meet tomorrow, June 29, at 20:30 UTC. Pad is here: https://pad.dyne.org/code/#/2/code/edit/qpQexwJC7Dw+JQ0dRmRtMp7K/ | 14:50 |
| LeePen | I am setting up excalibur. | 18:18 |
| LeePen | PLease accept my apologies, I forgot that britney would send lots of emails. | 18:18 |
| LeePen | I should have done it manually. | 18:18 |
| mason | No worries. I was happy to see that my list sign-ups were working. | 18:23 |
| bgstack15 | So what you're saying is, you should have left Britney alone? | 18:48 |
| mason | heh | 18:50 |
| LeePen | I *think* that is a young person's popular culture reference that has gone over my head ;) | 18:51 |
| LeePen | bb|hcb: I am having trouble restarting nginx on pkgmirror to pick up new certs. The issue appears to be 5.135.82.179. | 18:54 |
| LeePen | Unable to bind addess. | 18:54 |
| LeePen | Is that a current IP? | 18:55 |
| mason | LeePen: I'm old and I got it. :P https://yewtu.be/watch?v=XwhSZYOnBKc | 18:57 |
| LeePen | I know, it is my failing. | 18:57 |
| LeePen | My partner is continually annoyed at having to explain things like this. | 18:58 |
| mason | But now you'll get it too, at a cost of a few neural connections that would probably have been better spent left idle or taking in a view out a window. | 18:58 |
| LeePen | But she made me listen to the Smiths a few weeks ago and it hurt my ears! | 18:58 |
| mason | I've never been a huge fan, but look on the bright side - she didn't have you listen to a bunch of Einsturzende Neubauten. | 19:00 |
| LeePen | But then I am weird, I played celeste in a performance of this a few weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFL1O0SHhic | 19:02 |
| LeePen | bb|hcb: I have commented out that IP in all the sites-enabled and now nginx reloads OK. | 19:03 |
| LeePen | Perhaps you would confirm? | 19:03 |
| golinux | WOW . . . wonder what flipped LeePen's switch from the tower of social silence to chit-chat? | 19:05 |
| golinux | :D | 19:05 |
| mason | LeePen: Ah, neat. TIL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celesta and Armonica both. Thank you. | 19:06 |
| friedhelm | That ip does not resolve in dns here. Should belong to OVH. | 19:09 |
| golinux | Aren't we off of OVH? | 19:10 |
| LeePen | friedhelm: Yes, thanks. That was my analysis. | 19:10 |
| bb|hcb | LeePen: 5.135.82.179 is old ip, no longer in use. Configuration was not removed for a smoother transition from the old one, but someone (me) forgot to clean it up | 19:35 |
| LeePen | No worries. Perhaps you could check I have done it OK. | 19:36 |
| bb|hcb | It is good, thanks! | 19:37 |
| bb|hcb | golinux: Completely off OVH. There are some remnants in the config though | 19:42 |
| bgstack15 | The rise of Excalibur has brought forth the knight of Devuan! | 19:47 |
| mason | There has to be a way to fit in a watery tart somewhere. | 19:49 |
| LeePen | Now I understand that one! | 19:49 |
| mason | :) | 19:50 |
| bgstack15 | I opted against too many of those pop culture references about that location. ('Tis a silly place) | 19:50 |
| golinux | mason: I found a working link for the devuan-announce list! https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/mindex/devuan-announce@20190101.060000.00000000.en.html | 20:11 |
| mason | Ah, nice, thank you. I've since seen some other email from my resubs, so I appear to be up and running. | 20:12 |
| golinux | That link will need to be changed on www too. Will put it on the pad | 20:14 |
| fsmithred | daedalus rc1 live-isos are up. | 23:01 |
| bb|hcb | :) | 23:09 |
| * golinux waves to fsmithred | 23:23 | |
| fsmithred | hi | 23:23 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!
