| rrq | I think it usually is due to a source end inconsistency; that a package server is "in the middle" of an update when serving a package or index, combined with that apt-cacher-ng locks in to its source for a good time | 01:11 |
|---|---|---|
| rrq | further, the debian packages ar served via "fastly" that in itself lock in to which server serves you (or me) so it's not terribly easy to convince apt-cacher-ng to ge elsewhere | 01:12 |
| rrq | thirdly, the cacher doesn't "know" the reasons behind caching so cannot associate different files with each other | 01:14 |
| rrq | despite being named apt-something it is actualy a generic http chacher | 01:14 |
| rrq | so, I think I know many reasons about why there are problems, but I don't have any suggestion of solution | 01:16 |
| rwp | apt-cacher-ng is doing exactly what the web server told it to do with the time to live value in the header. | 01:16 |
| rwp | Every time I have debugged an apt-cacher-ng problem to the root I find that it is doing exactly the correct thing. The problem has happened on the mirror server. | 01:17 |
| rrq | plural | 01:17 |
| rwp | The mirror server has one set of files. It serves them with a long TTL. apt-cacher-ng reads one of them and records the time to live expiration. Then the files on the server are changed disregarding that published expiration time. | 01:18 |
| rwp | It's not like Devuan operates these mirrors. No. They are just a random eclectic collection of volunteered resources. And so the web servers distributing those files are going to be all different. | 01:19 |
| rwp | Somehow Debian makes that work though. | 01:19 |
| onefang | Debian has more cat herders than we do. | 01:19 |
| rrq | well I have often (or usually) got the problemm with the debian packages | 01:20 |
| rwp | One of the things Debian insists upon is using ftpsync rather than rsync. ftpsync updates files in the order needed to avoid being in an inconsistent state. Devuan uses the simple rsync method which pretty much guarentees that it will be out of sync invalid state at some point. | 01:20 |
| onefang | Yep, I have TODO items to look into those things, then see if I can convince our package mirrors to do them. | 01:21 |
| rwp | Also the irony of me complaining about rsync not being atomic and also using rsync for other mirrors is not lost on me! https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/savannah-users/2025-05/msg00002.html | 01:21 |
| onefang | I'm almost settled in my new home, last of a series of temporary moves. I can get back to work. | 01:22 |
| rwp | Life and time is what keeps everything from happening all at once. | 01:22 |
| joerg | rwp: I wonder if some snapshots could fix this. snapshot the fs at a certain time, run the "public" server from the snapshot while updating behind the scenes, then when update ready, switch "public" / server "vhost" from snapshot to the more recent currently updated version. btrfs snapshots or mounts could do this, I'd think | 10:41 |
| rwp | joerg, Snapshots and associated features could definitely fix this or at least improve this as it would provide for an atomic view of the file system. However I am setting this up for volunteers to host the mirrors just like most mirrors are handled by volunteers and that means random operating systems. Most operating systems do not have snapshot capability out of the box. | 10:55 |
| rwp | Therefore we need to implement a portable solution to mirroring such that it can handle operating on typical systems. Also if we are going to go that direction then zfs is so much better than btrfs that zfs would clearly be the much better solution. | 10:55 |
| joerg | yep, same with mount namespaces I guess | 10:56 |
| rwp | The main problem with btrfs is that so far the btrfs systems lock up under load stress. So that's somewhat of a showstopper right there. I can't say for certain that btrfs is the root cause of the lockups. But the logs that get written indicate kernel hung tasks on the btrfs file system and the other systems using xfs don't lock up the same way. So... It's worrisome. | 10:56 |
| joerg | 513 syslog? | 10:57 |
| rwp | Before people go, but btrfs works great on my single storage device laptop let me say that we need it to handle RAID and that's the situation where we find it locking up under stress. Specifically it is RAID1C3. I just looked and verified. And of course friends should not let friends run btrfs in a raid configuration. | 10:58 |
| joerg | I mean, a syslog on the btrfs would be not too useful to diagnose btrfs problems | 10:58 |
| rwp | I have console access and the lockups always log linux kernel hung task in the root file system where the root file system locks up and that's btrfs in this case. I can't say for sure of course but everything is pointing to it. | 10:59 |
| joerg | loghost:513 | 11:00 |
| rwp | I would definitely use zfs instead as zfs is mature and rock solid. I have been running zfs for years and it has pulled me through some terrible flaky hardware problems. I have never lost any data with zfs. | 11:00 |
| joerg | or was it 512? | 11:00 |
| rwp | As a datapoint we currently have three volunteer operated mirrors and each of them are a different operating system. | 11:01 |
| joerg | :nod: | 11:01 |
| joerg | actual twin dirtrees wouldn't be an option I guess? | 11:02 |
| joerg | for size reasons | 11:02 |
| rwp | This is offtopic but git itself uses .lock files in the repository. Which indicates that it itself is not race safe. Which means that trying to replicate a git repository while git push actions might happen at any time also cannot be race safe. | 11:04 |
| rwp | It's 3am here and I just finished doing some rearrangement of my computer desktop situation which has me up late but I must sleep as I have an early-ish meeting tomorrow. Talk to you later! | 11:05 |
| joerg | let's take it to -dev or -infra? | 11:05 |
| joerg | damn, port 514 | 11:06 |
| joerg | not 12, not 13 | 11:06 |
| AlexLikeRock | i turn OFF sounda card : with : | 21:05 |
| AlexLikeRock | pactl set-card-profile 1 off | 21:05 |
| AlexLikeRock | how to set ON ? AGAIN? | 21:05 |
| AlexLikeRock | the number its " index: 0 " | 21:06 |
| gnarface | no idea... "pactl set-card-profile 1 on" didn't work? | 21:07 |
| AlexLikeRock | Failure: No such entity} | 21:12 |
| gnarface | hmm, i don't know the tool well enough to know what's wrong, sorry | 21:13 |
| gnarface | i'd check the man page for you but i don't even have it installed here | 21:13 |
| gnarface | i'm sure someone else here knows... | 21:13 |
| AlexLikeRock | the manual its empy! | 21:17 |
| AlexLikeRock | XD | 21:17 |
| AlexLikeRock | check ! | 21:17 |
| AlexLikeRock | man pacmd | 21:18 |
| gnarface | you're still able to turn it back on with pavucontrol, right? | 21:18 |
| AlexLikeRock | well, my goal , its turn on by terminal | 21:22 |
| AlexLikeRock | i need a create a script | 21:22 |
| gnarface | yea, i figured that, i just wanted to make sure the problem isn't some bug in pulseaudio | 21:22 |
| AlexLikeRock | i think its not bug | 21:24 |
| AlexLikeRock | look : | 21:24 |
| AlexLikeRock | " pacmd set-card-profile 1 | 21:24 |
| AlexLikeRock | You need to specify a profile by its name." | 21:24 |
| gnarface | is there a way to make it list profiles? | 21:24 |
| AlexLikeRock | just need the profile "skin" | 21:25 |
| gnarface | also, you just used pacmd, when earlier you were using pactl? are these different or the same? | 21:25 |
| gnarface | oh, hmm... google returned me this, which looks possibly relevant: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=292264 | 21:28 |
| AlexLikeRock | DONE ! | 21:30 |
| AlexLikeRock | pacmd set-card-profile 1 output:analog-stereo | 21:30 |
| gnarface | ah, cool, you figured it out, good | 21:58 |
| AlexLikeRock | yes! :-D | 22:00 |
| mazes_83 | hi folks, I cannot upgrade my raspberry because of deb.devuan.org and deb.debian.org do not resolve | 23:12 |
| mazes_83 | are they out of use ? | 23:13 |
| gnarface | mazes_83: seems fine here as far as i can tell | 23:14 |
| gnarface | try a different DNS server | 23:14 |
| mazes_83 | yeah, I guess | 23:14 |
| gnarface | the devuan cluster is a mix of ipv4 and ipv6 hosts in a round-robin, and some major ISP's DNS servers still handle this wrong. google's public DNS (8.8.8.8) is known to work though | 23:16 |
| mazes_83 | I had to change dns server some month ago, and I'm not so satisfied of yandex now | 23:17 |
| mazes_83 | still dk what to use, but will go for google just during the download of packages | 23:17 |
| gnarface | personally i'd recommend you just run your own local DNS, but i can understand not wanting the commitment | 23:17 |
| mazes_83 | I was kind of | 23:18 |
| gnarface | well if you set up your own caching DNS for local use, just make sure it's querying the actual global root servers, not just forwarding requests to your ISP's | 23:20 |
| mazes_83 | yeah it was this setup (but not pointing my isp dns -> an associative french public dns) | 23:22 |
| gnarface | well if you think they'll care it might be worth filing a bug report with them | 23:23 |
| mazes_83 | pointing root server is on my todo list but I do not spend a lot of time on computers nowadays -> lazy :) | 23:23 |
| gnarface | i forget the exact problem but it's come up multiple times and it has something to do with the DNS servers handling some ipv6 corner case wrong | 23:23 |
| mazes_83 | the associative dns closed (only DoT), so I'm using yandex public one instead as a backup | 23:24 |
| gnarface | i see | 23:24 |
| gnarface | well we know that google's handles this correctly, as we know they'll also spy on you | 23:24 |
| mazes_83 | anyway thanks for the hints | 23:25 |
| gnarface | no problem, good luck | 23:25 |
| AlexLikeRock | hi, mazes_83 | 23:31 |
| AlexLikeRock | i have a same problem , | 23:31 |
| AlexLikeRock | well my solution its change to another mirror | 23:31 |
| AlexLikeRock | example 1 : | 23:32 |
| AlexLikeRock | deb http://deb.devuan.nz/merged/ daedalus non-free-firmware non-free contrib main | 23:32 |
| AlexLikeRock | the difference its ...deb.devuan.nz/... | 23:33 |
| AlexLikeRock | example 2 : | 23:33 |
| gnarface | oh, yea i forgot that; you can pick a specific mirror from the round-robin and use it directly. they won't all have the same problem: http://deb.devuan.org/mirror_list.txt | 23:34 |
| AlexLikeRock | deb http://deb.mirror.koddos.net/devuan/merged/daedalus/ main contrib non-free non-free-firmware | 23:34 |
| AlexLikeRock | gnarface, maybe you mean : devuan.org/mirror_list.txt | 23:35 |
| AlexLikeRock | without "deb." | 23:35 |
| gnarface | well either should work... if your dns is working | 23:36 |
| gnarface | oh, wait, actually no | 23:36 |
| AlexLikeRock | LOL : Document Not Found | 23:36 |
| gnarface | it has to be http://deb.devuan.org/mirror_list.txt | 23:36 |
| gnarface | but that file is on any of the specific mirrors too | 23:36 |
| AlexLikeRock | golinux, Document Not Found : https://devuan.org/mirror_list.txt | 23:36 |
| gnarface | i think regular devuan.org is just the web page | 23:37 |
| greenjeans | FYI if you're in the US I highly recommend the gnlug mirror, super fast for me | 23:37 |
| golinux | AlexLikeRock: It worked for greenjeans. Try another mirror as he suggests | 23:39 |
| AlexLikeRock | i cant open http://deb.devuan.org/mirror_list.txt <---- | 23:39 |
| AlexLikeRock | im from mexico | 23:39 |
| AlexLikeRock | :-/ | 23:39 |
| golinux | Maybe there's a tarrif on it!!! Sorry couldn't resist . . . :D | 23:40 |
| gnarface | AlexLikeRock: http://gnlug.org/pub/devuan/mirror_list.txt | 23:40 |
| AlexLikeRock | i found!! | 23:40 |
| AlexLikeRock | http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/mirror_list.txt | 23:40 |
| gnarface | or that | 23:40 |
| AlexLikeRock | this its the good one gnarface | 23:40 |
| golinux | Worked here too | 23:40 |
| AlexLikeRock | mazes_83, enter and pick one http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/mirror_list.txt | 23:40 |
| golinux | But then I've been accessing it for a very long time and it's in my cache | 23:41 |
| AlexLikeRock | yes, because , you are at USA | 23:41 |
| mazes_83 | my local dns fails with deb.devuan.org and it's the one I tried to update | 23:42 |
| mazes_83 | for now I will keep it as is, and just use hate.hate.hate.hate when some package fail to dowload | 23:43 |
| mazes_83 | thanks all | 23:44 |
| greenjeans | No tariffs, but we may ask for tamales ;) | 23:46 |
| greenjeans | preferably handmade by a sweet little old abuela | 23:47 |
| mazes_83 | I only cook bamboo sprouts | 23:47 |
| greenjeans | I do miss good Mexican food, hard to find up here in yankee-land | 23:48 |
| golinux | Try this for setting up a mirror: http://deb.devuan.org/devuan_mirror_walkthrough.txt | 23:48 |
| golinux | Please resist OT chatter | 23:49 |
| AlexLikeRock | my dns fail too to deb.devuan.org | 23:58 |
| AlexLikeRock | tamales ? how say tamales ? | 23:58 |
| AlexLikeRock | i like tameles, sopes , enchiladas, cochinita pibil, gorditas, quesadillas y los pinches tacos ! | 23:59 |
| AlexLikeRock | me matas con eso! | 23:59 |
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