| chomwitt | good morning | 09:34 |
|---|---|---|
| chomwitt | why starting emacs from a tty-shell from my main user will open gui emacs but doing that from logged in as another user will start a text emacs ? | 09:36 |
| chomwitt | (to be more specific: from a shell running in xterm) | 09:37 |
| gnarface | chomwitt: by default, X will forbid users other than you from opening windows, but it can't enforce that for programs that stay within the terminal, and even the GUI emacs has the full text version available to fail over to | 09:37 |
| gnarface | you can force the GUI emacs to stay in the terminal with the "-nw" command-line option, or you could just install the "emacs-nox" package instead and it'll leave out the GUI parts entirely | 09:38 |
| * chomwitt parsing gnarface reply.. | 09:38 | |
| gnarface | alternately you could just use the xhost command to grant your other user graphical access | 09:38 |
| gnarface | (check man page for xhost details) | 09:39 |
| gnarface | running X as your own user, even root will be forbidden from opening windows, by default | 09:39 |
| chomwitt | gnarface: so X is running i guess as a process with mine UID and when i create an process from fooUID will not accept it. | 09:41 |
| chomwitt | emacs-nox package has a nasty habit of conflicting with gui emacs | 09:43 |
| chomwitt | gnarface: thank you! i am checking xhost. | 09:45 |
| chomwitt | its funny using multiuser linux solo for so many years. I tend to think 'user' is a wrong word. Why not call it sessionID or workflowID? | 10:06 |
| freaxeh_ | should I be using rsync over NFS? | 12:56 |
| freaxeh_ | or should I connect directly? | 12:56 |
| gnarface | freaxeh_: uh, i think rsync has ssh support, but if you're going for speed NFS is probably still gonna win | 14:30 |
| gnarface | but if you're going for pure speed you wouldn't necessarily use rsync either; its primary value is it can de-duplicate and update etc during synchronization operations, but that has a lot of transactional overhead, and it's usually faster to just use tar or cp | 14:31 |
| gnarface | (assuming you don't care about duplicated data) | 14:31 |
| gnarface | (like if you're copying fresh directory trees for the first time or doing versioned snapshots or the like) | 14:32 |
| ecxod | Hahaha systemd-coredump user states that the whole computer is his home directory | 18:54 |
| ecxod | systemd-coredump:x:999:999:systemd Core Dumper:/:/usr/sbin/nologin | 18:54 |
| ecxod | btw I get a 404 on https://git.devuan.org/sdk/arm-sdk | 20:00 |
| gnarface | hmm, who's supposed to be in charge of that? | 20:02 |
| ecxod | I don't know I followed a link | 20:02 |
| rwp | Anubis there required about 20 seconds of compute time from my slower laptop machine to compute the access hash. | 20:03 |
| rwp | ecxod, Try this link: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-sdk/arm-sdk | 20:04 |
| greenjeans | I opened that first link 3 minute ago, and anubis is still trying to figure out if i'm human | 20:05 |
| ecxod | How can this anubis protect for bots? | 20:05 |
| greenjeans | 4 minutes, still not deon | 20:06 |
| greenjeans | *done* | 20:06 |
| rwp | Bots don't usually run Javascript and can't solve the local hash computation requirement. | 20:06 |
| greenjeans | 5 minutes, still going, this is ridiculous | 20:06 |
| rwp | I think someone may have cranked up the work requirement on this Anubis install quite too high! | 20:07 |
| greenjeans | finally done, only to give me a 404, lol | 20:07 |
| rwp | This is OT but... This problem with Anubis is why some organizations such as GNU & FSF have been resisting adding it to our sites. The cure might be worse. | 20:08 |
| greenjeans | second link worked fine | 20:08 |
| ecxod | nooo, bots would not be able to see anything in the Internet if they would not use js. This protection is NULL | 20:08 |
| rwp | ecxod, (greenjeans) I think someone gave out a bad link. I found the link I posted by searching for it on the site. | 20:08 |
| greenjeans | that makes it even worse, why does a bad link need 5.5 minutes of anubis shenanigans? lol | 20:09 |
| rwp | My last OT but I think everyone should create and install a tar pit for bots all over everywhere (not on git servers) so that bots get stuck in those other tar pits in order to protect the precious resources of free software source servers. | 20:10 |
| rwp | greenjeans, It didn't matter that it was a bad link, or a good link, it was on the site anywhere and therefore anubis required the proof of work to be done for access anywhere on the site. | 20:10 |
| greenjeans | yikes | 20:11 |
| rwp | Anubis does not really care what the link URL is but only that the price had been paid. | 20:12 |
| greenjeans | I get that anubis stuff from time to time while surfing, every time I see it I just close the tab and move on, so it's definitely protecting websites fro me, lol, there may be some merit in that | 20:14 |
| fsmithred | took me less than half a minute to get the 404 | 20:18 |
| fsmithred | before anubis it was taking a long time to get there because we were being hammered by bots | 20:19 |
| fsmithred | and once there, it was still slow. | 20:19 |
| rwp | I'll 2nd that observation that without anubis protecting sites many sites (like the GNU source sites) are so hammered that they are overwhelmed and timeout due to the network abuse. | 20:22 |
| rwp | The problem is that both the network abuse and the protection from network abuse are both bad things for us humans trying to use the sites. I am hoping we can do something better than anubis and move forward past it. I see anubis as a clever initial first pass hack. It's clever. Something was needed. But I want the next generation protection now. | 20:23 |
| fsmithred | I vote for ICBM | 20:25 |
| rwp | LOL! | 20:32 |
| Afdal | Anubis causes crashing for me on Palemoon. Making it -functionally- exactly like the hostile garbage Cloudflare started doing in February | 20:35 |
| Afdal | For those not aware of the huge scandal plaguing the web the last few months: https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2025/03/04/cloudflare_blocking_niche_browsers/ | 20:38 |
| Afdal | oh wait, Devuan is using this anubis crap to "protect" their website now? | 20:39 |
| greenjeans | oh yeah, i've been getting that buggy cloudflare crap for months now, sometimes it simply refuses to load the stupid check box and i never get to login to some sites | 20:39 |
| Afdal | Didn't realize the context of this conversation | 20:39 |
| Afdal | you need to find an alternative fast | 20:39 |
| Afdal | I saw a searx instance using something else recently, let me see if I can find that again | 20:40 |
| Afdal | yeah search.inetol.net uses something called SecuNet I think | 20:42 |
| greenjeans | seconding the ICBM rec | 20:46 |
| Afdal | yep, just tested again | 20:48 |
| Afdal | anubis still crashes my browser | 20:48 |
| Afdal | I'm filing this under malicious software | 20:49 |
| Afdal | congrats on making the devuan website inaccessible | 20:49 |
| fsmithred | it was already inaccessible before anubis | 20:50 |
| fsmithred | now at least some of us can get there. Maybe most of us. | 20:51 |
| Afdal | By the way I'm not sure if this also applies to Anubis, but the way Cloudflare has been operating they're actually strongarming browser developers to add the very automation APIs into their browsers that are used by the bots it claims to protect websites against | 20:56 |
| Afdal | also the vast majority of site bots (like 90%) are built on Chrome | 20:57 |
| Afdal | so by creating a malicious piece of software to block out non-Google-approved browsers you have done nothing to solve the problem | 20:58 |
| greenjeans | shhh, keep you voice down or google overlords will hear you | 20:58 |
| chomwitt | i can access devuan.org from lynx! does that count? | 21:06 |
| rwp | It does. But that is a different web site, all static files and more resistant to abusive attacks. The AI Crawlers are hammering the source browsing web sites and those are very resource heavy and get taken offline the same as if it were a targeted DDOS attack. | 21:08 |
| chomwitt | what do you mean by 'source browsing web sites'? | 21:10 |
| chomwitt | also qutebrowser works with devuan.org | 21:11 |
| greenjeans | I've never had a problem with any browser accessing devuan.org | 21:12 |
| Afdal | devuan.org isn't using the malicious Anubis browser "verifier" | 21:13 |
| rwp | chomwitt, I mean gitweb or cgit which renders pages in a human friendly format. | 21:14 |
| Afdal | it's git.devuan.org that has the Anubis malware | 21:14 |
| chomwitt | rwp: thank for the clarification | 21:14 |
| rwp | With git we have cgit and gitweb for human browsing. And then there is git-http-backend for using http and https protocol for git clone actions. git-http-backend is the git smart http backend for efficient http protocol cloning. Unfortunately (my opinion) cgit also supports git cloning and then people use it but it is painfully heavy and should not be used for git cloning. | 21:15 |
| chomwitt | ah! indeed git.devuan.org checks if i am a bot . but qutebrowser passes. So i guess the solution is to check that not by the browser used but by another browser-agnostic way ? | 21:19 |
| Afdal | Are you using the webkit engine or the qtwebengine | 21:21 |
| chomwitt | a! that thought of mine is already discussed in palemoon forum. Using traffic patter analysis and not blocking browsers. | 21:22 |
| chomwitt | s/patter/pattern | 21:22 |
| Afdal | what thread | 21:22 |
| Afdal | there's a very big discussion about Cloudflare's garbage on the palemoon forums right now | 21:22 |
| Afdal | oh wait, qtwebengine is Google cruft too | 21:25 |
| Afdal | So I guess qutebrowser is a Google-approved browser | 21:25 |
| chomwitt | netsurf can access git.devuan.org and doestn do a bot check! | 21:29 |
| chomwitt | but it seems has javascript disabled | 21:29 |
| chomwitt | maybe that cloudfare issue is not the bigger problem. (shouldnt we discuss that in offtopic?) | 21:30 |
| Afdal | I was thinking this was an off-topic discussion until I realized it was about an official Devuan website | 21:31 |
| Afdal | it's very topical I think | 21:31 |
| chomwitt | i mean many sites dont work well for various reasons in ligthweigth browsers | 21:32 |
| fsmithred | chomwitt, lynx works on git.devuan.org too. I just logged in. | 21:32 |
| chomwitt | fsmithred: that is ultracool!! | 21:32 |
| fsmithred | can't log out. | 21:33 |
| fsmithred | lol | 21:34 |
| chomwitt | :-) | 21:34 |
| Afdal | Lynx is just another webkit browser | 21:35 |
| Afdal | netsurf working is interesting though | 21:35 |
| Afdal | I think netsurf uses its own independent engine | 21:35 |
| Afdal | or am I mistaken about Lynx | 21:36 |
| fsmithred | I don't know what lynx uses. It's been around longer than linux. | 21:37 |
| Afdal | Wait... are there two web browsers called Lynx??? | 21:37 |
| fsmithred | there's lynx which is console-only and links2 which is console or graphical. Not sure if links is still a thing. | 21:38 |
| djph | I think 'links' got replaced by elinks | 21:38 |
| Afdal | what's this https://github.com/KamalDevelopers/Lynx | 21:38 |
| Afdal | @_@? | 21:39 |
| djph | some rando usurping the name, by the look of it | 21:39 |
| djph | probably a college kid | 21:39 |
| Afdal | lol | 21:39 |
| Afdal | might be a fake project | 21:40 |
| Afdal | its logo looks like touched up Firefox logo | 21:40 |
| Afdal | even though it's using webkit :^) | 21:40 |
| tempforever | Afdal (I know I'm a little late to the conversation) I can access git.devuan.org with palemoon and pass the anubis check without crashing. I'm using v33.7.1 amd64 gtk2 | 22:35 |
| Afdal | eh? | 22:36 |
| Afdal | I'm on the same build | 22:36 |
| Afdal | hmmmmm | 22:36 |
| tempforever | but I also can get through cloudflare so... not sure what's different here | 22:36 |
| Afdal | well the Cloudflare thing is complicated | 22:37 |
| Afdal | Cloudflare actually serves up random challenges for starters | 22:37 |
| Afdal | sometimes your browser might pass them sometimes it might not | 22:37 |
| Afdal | wonder what's causing my crashing then | 22:38 |
| Afdal | don't wanna test again right now because crashing is so onerous -.- | 22:38 |
| tempforever | idk i also use "banned" addon noscript and requestpolicy - banned because of browser support requests for crashes/sites not working | 22:38 |
| Afdal | I use both noscript and ublock origin | 22:39 |
| Afdal | wonder if ublock is doing something here | 22:39 |
| tempforever | i dont have that one | 22:39 |
| tempforever | not saying that pm works perfectly, it has issues (including a crash) on other sites, but devuan's git site works at least, even with anubis | 22:40 |
| Afdal | I hadn't had crashes on Palemoon for a long time until this Cloudflare garbage this year | 22:42 |
| Afdal | that's why I assumed Anubis was doing the same garbage | 22:42 |
| Afdal | The Cloudflare stuff was extremely malicious, they were using a verification loop that would in a matter of seconds suck up all computer memory | 22:43 |
| tempforever | i read some of that on their forum, is that still ongoing? | 22:44 |
| Afdal | Palemoon devs had to issue an emergency patch that for the time being ignored Cloudflare turnstile demands | 22:44 |
| Afdal | no, it's still not resolved completely | 22:45 |
| Afdal | after some pressure from other browser devs and tech news articles, after like two months of silence they finally got a Cloudflare rep to respond | 22:45 |
| Afdal | and they've been issuing unreasonable demands | 22:45 |
| Afdal | from the devs | 22:45 |
| Afdal | here's a good quote from the lead dev: | 22:46 |
| Afdal | >In fact, from my own inspection of web logs to check bot behaviour, it seems these automation APIs inside browsers is exactly what is being used to drive a good portion of bots (a majority seems to be running on top of automated Chromium instances!); so we're actually against giving bots the tools to abuse the web by refusing to make this available, and I'm against even having this implemented at all in our platform. | 22:46 |
| Afdal | Actually it seems the next official Palemoon release (scheduled for July 1 release -_-) passes the current Cloudflare captchas without problems | 22:56 |
| Afdal | of course Cloudflare could always do something else | 22:57 |
| neoncortex | there was any change in the fonts configuration recently? My system stopped showing some utf-8 characters, in xterm, and xfce4-terminal. | 23:40 |
| fsmithred | paculino, did you get your sudo sorted out? | 23:42 |
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