| jj_Super1 | So I think I might have a pam issue? I am getting "module not found" when attempting to log in. I am now sitting in a recovery mode with the filesystem mounted, but I don't initially see anything amis with the pam.d/* conf files. Thoughts? Where exactly are those modules "pam_unix.so" supposed to be? | 01:20 |
|---|---|---|
| rustyaxe | run as root: pam-auth-update | 01:22 |
| jj_Super1 | Already done, no effect | 01:22 |
| gnarface | which release version? any idea what you might have changed to cause this? | 01:24 |
| jj_Super1 | ummmmm Daedalus/5 I'm sure it had to do with migrating from bookworm. | 01:25 |
| gnarface | maybe the migration was incomplete? | 01:26 |
| rustyaxe | if it helps; these are the pam packages ive got installed; you probabl dont need all of them: libpam-cap:amd64 libpam-cgroup:amd64 libpam-chroot libpam-elogind:amd64 libpam-gnome-keyring:amd64 libpam-modules:amd64 libpam-modules-bin libpam-mount:amd64 libpam-mount-bin libpam-runtime libpam0g:amd64 | 01:26 |
| jj_Super1 | Hmm, well I think at this point is probably safist to just re-install. This machine is blank anyhow. | 01:29 |
| gnarface | aww, but what fun is that? | 01:34 |
| gnarface | paste the contents of your /etc/apt/sources.list to paste.debian.net and then drop the link here so i can sanity check it for you | 01:34 |
| gnarface | after that, assuming it's fine i'd recommend "apt-get clean && apt-get update && apt-get --no-install-recommends dist-upgrade" to see if it coughs up any errors | 01:35 |
| jj_Super1 | ummm let me see if I can get this machine connected to anything. I can't get networkmanager running, but let me try sometihng | 01:37 |
| gnarface | you should be able to get a network connection with just bare edits to /etc/network/interfaces and calling ifup [device] | 01:39 |
| gnarface | or even a just running ifconfig or ip once manually | 01:39 |
| gnarface | (with the appropriate command-line options, of course) | 01:40 |
| jj_Super1 | I never have connected to weefee that easily in my whole life. lol | 01:40 |
| gnarface | hmm, no ethernet on hand? i can help you with wifi specific /etc/network/interfaces contents | 01:41 |
| gnarface | a wire would be easier | 01:41 |
| jj_Super1 | I'm connected, and I agree a wire would be easier | 01:41 |
| gnarface | an uncorrupted bookworm install with no 3rd party or backports packages should upgrade fairly seamlessly to daedalus, so chances are this should be pretty easy to fix | 01:42 |
| gnarface | if you did something crazy like threw a bunch of ubuntu ppa packages in there first though, all bets are off | 01:43 |
| jj_Super1 | I see one problem; it has excalibur, and then daedlus-updates/security. I'll make them all the same, and then try the upgrade | 01:43 |
| gnarface | yea, that could be a problem | 01:43 |
| gnarface | are you using non-free video drivers or wifi drivers? | 01:43 |
| jj_Super1 | I don't mind testing, but I feel they should at least be the same | 01:43 |
| jj_Super1 | I am using non-free wifi driver currently | 01:43 |
| gnarface | note that they got moved from non-free to "non-free-firmware" as of daedalus/bookworm | 01:44 |
| jj_Super1 | Yes I have that as well | 01:44 |
| gnarface | here, an example daedalus sources.list for you: https://paste.debian.net/1372763/ | 01:45 |
| gnarface | that should include everything | 01:45 |
| jj_Super1 | I'll have to add the source entries later, but everything else matches | 01:45 |
| gnarface | deb-src entries shouldn't be important unless you're building your own packages | 01:46 |
| gnarface | well, re-builds of existing packages, to be specific | 01:47 |
| jj_Super1 | apt is not showing any errors, I have held broken packages, so I'll have to go dig for those | 01:52 |
| gnarface | doesn't "held broken packages" count as an error? | 01:57 |
| gnarface | if you had excalibur in your sources.list you might have accidentally upgraded partway to testing | 01:57 |
| gnarface | you might need to explicitly downgrade those | 01:58 |
| gnarface | i think they would have "deb13" in their version string, but not sure | 01:58 |
| jj_Super1 | Yes, I just discoverd that issue. However, that doesn't explain why I can't login even with root | 01:59 |
| gnarface | couldn't tell you either, maybe some pre/postinst script fail | 01:59 |
| gnarface | just make all the package versions right then reboot and see if it's magically fixed | 01:59 |
| gnarface | you can always reinstall if it's too far gone to save easily | 02:00 |
| gnarface | usually it's not though | 02:00 |
| gnarface | library version differences could cause any sort of unexpected function call failures behind the scenes | 02:01 |
| gnarface | occasionally you'll have something fundamental change in format in a way that no packages are set up to cleanly revert, but that's less common | 02:02 |
| gnarface | i guess it kinda depends on how many packages got pulled in from excalibur and which ones, and what exactly they were changing in testing at that time | 02:02 |
| gnarface | upgrades to apt/dpkg internal databases themselves for example, are pretty problematic to revert | 02:03 |
| gnarface | pam packages on their own though are usually not | 02:03 |
| gnarface | likewise, some killer breaks to filesystem tools have happened (especially with ext4) but even those are relatively rare, if catastrophic | 02:03 |
| gnarface | if you want to play it absolutely safe, it's certainly smarter to do a clean reinstall, i was just simply trying to help you recover your already spent effort and redeem it with a bit of educational experience | 02:04 |
| gnarface | *note, clean reinstall and clean reformat of the disks would be in order, in that case | 02:05 |
| jj_Super1 | I love educational experience, but I think whatever happened has left this system in a poor state. I'll keep trying, thanks for your help | 02:06 |
| gnarface | just so you made sure the tools that did the disk formats and the driver in the kernel were matched versions | 02:06 |
| fsmithred | aptitude search ~i -F"%p# %v# %t#" | grep testing | 02:07 |
| gnarface | ah, yes, this might be helpful jj_Super1 ^ | 02:07 |
| fsmithred | more goodies like that here: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=511 | 02:08 |
| jj_Super1 | Hmm, seems like 52.8377% or so of the packages are testing and something else | 02:12 |
| jj_Super1 | OK, lets start over. Why do none of these installer isos work except the desktop version? Strange. | 02:16 |
| fsmithred | which installer isos have you tried? | 02:19 |
| jj_Super1 | I downloaded the torrent from the official mirror, I tried the v5 server image, the v5 netinstall, the v5 i386 net install, AND a mystery v6 preview netinstlal, and nothing works except the 3.7g desktop install | 02:21 |
| jj_Super1 | I tried them on 2 laptops, and my server, all various grades of intel hardware | 02:21 |
| fsmithred | that's odd. They all have the same installer. | 02:21 |
| jj_Super1 | Its very odd, I'll keep trying | 02:22 |
| gnarface | jj_Super1: what's the hardware? is it possible the wifi firmware in current stable is too old? | 02:33 |
| jj_Super1 | For booting from an iso? | 02:33 |
| jj_Super1 | Its a thinkpad t420 | 02:33 |
| gnarface | yea. i would always recommend trying regular wired ethernet first, just because wifi is problematic... hmm, t420 should not be too new though afaik | 02:33 |
| jj_Super1 | So i7, 16bg ram, nvme, | 02:34 |
| gnarface | i guess i don't know for sure | 02:34 |
| gnarface | you tried this one, right? https://files.devuan.org/devuan_daedalus/installer-iso/devuan_daedalus_5.0.1_amd64_netinstall.iso | 02:34 |
| gnarface | that's the one i always use | 02:34 |
| jj_Super1 | Let me re-download, just in case | 02:34 |
| gnarface | well, i guess lately i usually debootstrap because i'm doing some crazy arm thing, but that one should work | 02:35 |
| gnarface | if you get to a part that doesn't work, give us more detail maybe we can troubleshoot | 02:35 |
| jj_Super1 | Hmm, I'll try. It could be this laptop. I did pay a reasonable sum of $125 for it 4 years ago. | 02:36 |
| jj_Super1 | However, the debian 12 netinstall works everytime | 02:36 |
| gnarface | we're pretty decent at troubleshooting hardware failure too, but that does sound like a software issue | 02:36 |
| gnarface | just boot it up and give us a play-by-play | 02:37 |
| jj_Super1 | SO FAR, 0/0 for booting from the usb | 02:37 |
| gnarface | what?! | 02:37 |
| jj_Super1 | Pretty soon its gonna be boot from lan | 02:37 |
| gnarface | hmm, how did you write it to the sd? | 02:37 |
| gnarface | i mean the usb | 02:37 |
| gnarface | let's sanity check your usb write command | 02:37 |
| jj_Super1 | This time I used rufus in windows, because I am sanity checking myself | 02:38 |
| gnarface | i recommend dd or cp | 02:38 |
| gnarface | if you use dd, don't specify a block size, but do specify "conv=fsync" | 02:38 |
| gnarface | (or run sync afterwards) | 02:38 |
| jj_Super1 | I'll try that next | 02:39 |
| gnarface | the sync thing catches a lot of people due to changes in how filesystem writeback caches work for removable media | 02:39 |
| gnarface | i haven't heard about rufus in a long time so i don't know if it can be trusted with these isos, but if it worked for debian it should work for these too... | 02:40 |
| gnarface | what i know for sure is you can't trust the rpi one to work reliably for anything larger than 128MB | 02:40 |
| gnarface | balena etcher works maybe 95% of the time but is probably spyware | 02:41 |
| gnarface | dd will work every time as long as you get all the fiddly little options just right | 02:41 |
| jj_Super1 | def spyware, which is why I only write riscv images with it | 02:41 |
| jj_Super1 | OK! | 02:42 |
| jj_Super1 | DD mode with fsync and we have a heartbeat | 02:42 |
| gnarface | it booted? | 02:42 |
| jj_Super1 | It did! | 02:42 |
| gnarface | cool, so my current hypothesis is that write-back caching (not sure if i'm phrasing that correctly) fooled your previous attempts into a premature "finished" state, so you were actually trying to boot partial images | 02:43 |
| jj_Super1 | I saw it quit at 70% once | 02:43 |
| jj_Super1 | so your theory seems correct to me | 02:43 |
| gnarface | "conv=fsync" basically waits for a sync confirmation at every block, so you should notice writes take distinctly longer on slow media, but you'll know for sure it's done when it says it's done | 02:44 |
| gnarface | they changed this in the kernel like way back in 2012 but it's still catching people off guard | 02:45 |
| gnarface | system "eject" functions might call "sync" manually after the fact, so if you ever software-eject a removable disk without a hardware eject feature like a USB key for example and it seems to hang... just wait | 02:46 |
| gnarface | (you can check the output of dmesg and see that when it's done it'll report the disk size change to 0) | 02:47 |
| gnarface | back when they used to put traffic LEDs on USB keys you could just wait until it stopped blinking, i miss those... | 02:48 |
| jj_Super1 | I also get an error about the installer not being able to tell the kernel about partitioning the disks | 02:49 |
| jj_Super1 | I've seen that a few times | 02:49 |
| gnarface | hmm, not sure i'm aware of that... at what point do you see that message? | 02:49 |
| gnarface | i wonder if it's an EFI thing | 02:50 |
| jj_Super1 | I haven't actually let it do it automatically, because I usually end up editing the sizes before writing, so when I select "finish and write" it says WAHT! Something happened! and it want's me to reboot, which is dumb | 02:51 |
| jj_Super1 | If I say ignore, it finishes the install no problem | 02:51 |
| gnarface | hmm, you're booting in EFI mode not legacy bios mode? | 02:52 |
| jj_Super1 | correct | 02:52 |
| gnarface | you might have to uh... do something in your efi interface before booting this to assign a efi partition, or something like that... sorry i'm still vague on the process, been avoiding EFI... fsmithred? | 02:52 |
| gnarface | also, i recommend against automatic partitioning... it's always been insane. just choose to partition manually | 02:53 |
| jj_Super1 | nah its fine, it'll work, the installer just panicks a bit too fast. loves clutching them pearls. | 02:53 |
| jj_Super1 | I agree, I need more than 1GB swap! | 02:53 |
| gnarface | yea, needs to be at least as much as physical RAM for hibernate to work | 02:54 |
| gnarface | afaik the debian netinstall should be basically identical here though | 02:55 |
| jj_Super1 | I have never had that issue in debian? but its also been a while since I installed debian on this machine | 02:56 |
| jj_Super1 | I will assume nvme failure at this point | 02:57 |
| fsmithred | here. hang on while I catch up. | 02:57 |
| fsmithred | <jj_Super1> I also get an error about the installer not being able to tell the kernel about partitioning the disks | 02:59 |
| fsmithred | run partprobe | 02:59 |
| fsmithred | for that error | 02:59 |
| fsmithred | I have a t420 and I always assumed that something happened to the bios one or more of the times it's been dropped on the floor. | 03:00 |
| jj_Super1 | ..... I may have first hand experience of what you speak | 03:00 |
| fsmithred | when I was booting it in legacy mode, I could only boot from cdrom and I had to make a special one with the menu items to boot the internal disk | 03:01 |
| fsmithred | and also for usb boots | 03:01 |
| fsmithred | I switched it to uefi, and I can boot without cdrom, but it's still really funky. I can only boot usb from my custom menu entries | 03:02 |
| jj_Super1 | Well it booted, it works, AND battery at 5% but so is my brain capacity for the day, so fair | 03:02 |
| fsmithred | and I'm afraid to flash the bios | 03:02 |
| fsmithred | cool | 03:02 |
| fsmithred | let you and the battery recharge | 03:02 |
| jj_Super1 | I'm gonna flash libre or something on my x230 soon I think, I've never tried but I want to | 03:03 |
| jj_Super1 | and I like it better, because its chunky | 03:03 |
| jj_Super1 | also that keyboard is my fav; I'm gonna go watch star trek and pass out. Thanks for the help. Hopefully I can contribute to the project someday. | 03:04 |
| gnarface | have a good one | 03:04 |
| fsmithred | yw | 03:04 |
| darwin | after updates, both our Devuan PCs are no longer mounting their USB flash drives, saying similar & same messages like they're corrupt. One update was to Linux 6.12.12... should I just boot back to latest stable 6.1? | 11:39 |
| gnarface | darwin: well, see if that works at least. my first guess would be there was a non-compatible filesystem driver change that would have required updates to userspace tools to match, but hopefully nothing important was on those USB drives because this type of mismatch sometimes corrupts filesystems | 11:41 |
| gnarface | it might work to just update the userspace tools | 11:42 |
| gnarface | what format was this? or are you just talking about the installer isos still? | 11:42 |
| darwin | EXFAT/NTFS | 11:42 |
| darwin | i updated those PCs a few minutes ago also | 11:43 |
| gnarface | i'm not sure the support for those has changed much lately but i don't use them | 11:43 |
| gnarface | i would try booting 6.1 again, yea. you didn't uninstall it did you? | 11:43 |
| gnarface | there's usually multiple good reasons kernels that new aren't in the stable release | 11:47 |
| darwin | of course not. That worked. They're just extra/portable backups | 11:47 |
| gnarface | i personally would recommend against using non-journaling filesystems for something that important | 11:48 |
| darwin | by portable I mean family can use them on whatever PCs anywhere | 11:48 |
| gnarface | oh, right | 11:48 |
| darwin | i don't know of a journalling one usable on both Windows & Apple | 11:48 |
| gnarface | stock no, but there's ext4 drivers for windows | 11:49 |
| gnarface | unofficial | 11:49 |
| darwin | i used EXT2 or EXT3 on USB flash drive in university, and then my professor couldn't open/read it, because MS bribed the school everyone use their software | 11:49 |
| gnarface | yea, i know | 11:49 |
| darwin | yeah, well you won't likely find those like on public library PCs, etc. | 11:49 |
| gnarface | well, i was just gonna say that it might even dodge whatever compatibility issue you have, just by chance | 11:50 |
| gnarface | since it's unlikely they broke all the filesystem drivers between 6.1 and 6.12 but i don't know | 11:50 |
| gnarface | you're probably safer running 6.1 anyway, for multiple reasons | 11:50 |
| darwin | i used 6.12.n on others without the problem, but maybe I didn't mount my own USB flash drives on that specific version, and most mine arent EXFAT/NTFS | 11:50 |
| darwin | yes; thanks | 11:50 |
| darwin | however, on rebooting often all our desktop icons in XFCE are rearranged, and there's no way to lock them. After backing up ~/Desktop to the other and back, it's now also saying they're all untrusted | 11:50 |
| gnarface | ah, well that's probably because you're using a filesystem for your backups that doesn't respect unix permissions | 11:51 |
| darwin | that's on both of them, and happens on my other UNIX/GNU/Linux also... more an XFCE, or general X (Window System) issue... also happened when I used to use KDE, despite claiming you could lock them in place | 11:51 |
| darwin | no. X isn't being run on backups | 11:51 |
| gnarface | just archive them all into a .xz file or whatever first, that should preserve the permissions internally without the need for the backup filesystem to support them | 11:52 |
| darwin | i backup family's main PC to spare PC, and to spare spare PC, and to my PC | 11:52 |
| darwin | (of course to different username on mine) | 11:52 |
| darwin | that is, just /home (I'm a different user than them, I mean) | 11:53 |
| gnarface | i don't use xfce so i don't know about the icon ordering thing, but it could also be related to the filesystem you're copying them to | 11:53 |
| darwin | same fileystem on all (EXT4) | 11:53 |
| gnarface | you just said you were copying them to the exfat/ntfs disks? | 11:53 |
| darwin | that's a portable backup, not the backup into the HDD | 11:53 |
| gnarface | hmm | 11:53 |
| gnarface | well make sure the permissions are right anyway | 11:54 |
| darwin | they're identical , and rsync handles that | 11:54 |
| gnarface | but stick around, xfce is popular and people around here know a lot more about it than me | 11:54 |
| darwin | their main PC and mine have backups of each other and on each two spare PCs. I backup both to my external HDD. I backup each of theirs to USB flash drive. It's six different backups, and of course, we're not running X from USB flash drives. Their spare PCs just get /home cloned because they want same on each | 11:55 |
| darwin | the X icons moving around has happened since 2010s or earlier. I even reported it to KDE, but I think it's X | 11:56 |
| darwin | often it happens when a computer is number-crunching and though X isn't being used, there's not enough resources left for X | 11:56 |
| darwin | sometimes that requires hard reboot, but often happens after even soft reboot | 11:57 |
| darwin | if it's X and not only KDE & XFCE themselves, I don't know where to report it... thought they stopped working on X, unfortunately... | 11:58 |
| jjSuper1 | So, apt, and apt-get wnat to upgrade even with --no-upgrade flag, thoughts? | 16:53 |
| Xenguy | My thought would be, what are you trying to do? | 16:55 |
| jjSuper1 | Oh, well, I was trying to install hexchat, and I used --no-upgrade --no-install-recommends, but it still says that it will upgrade fuse3 ppp and network-manager; not sure what that has to do with an irc client, but who knows | 16:57 |
| jjSuper1 | The issue is that it should not do that | 16:57 |
| Xenguy | apt-cache show hexchat does not show those dependencies AFAICT | 16:59 |
| Xenguy | So I agree, I don't think you should be seeing NM being pulled in for example | 16:59 |
| jjSuper1 | Well yes, which is part of my issue, but also why is it going to upgrade even when I tell it not to do so? | 17:00 |
| Xenguy | What release are you using, and is there any 'frankendevuan' shenanigans going on? | 17:03 |
| Xenguy | .oO( Was it something I said? = ) | 17:04 |
| jjSuper1 | Sorry, had to reboot. Seems ok? I pressed yes. I'm running Excalibur on this machine, mostly. Still an odd thing for Apt to do | 17:08 |
| Xenguy | Seems like it; I wonder if apt-get behaves any differently? | 17:09 |
| jjSuper1 | They both did the same thing. HOWEVER, when I run --no-upgrade, it does not recommend systemd in apt, but when I leave it out, it very much wants me to install systemd... anyhow, I pressed yes and it works. | 17:10 |
| jjSuper1 | apt-get never recommended systemd | 17:11 |
| jjSuper1 | That was the only difference I could see | 17:11 |
| Xenguy | Weird. Sounds above my paygrade. | 17:14 |
| jjSuper1 | Ye, that's why I pressed yes. It either breaks and I have to fix it, or it works. It worked. | 17:17 |
| fsmithred | "Mostly" excalibur is ok if the not-excalibur part is ceres and you know what you're doing, but if it's daedalus with excalibur you should expect problems | 18:55 |
| jjSuper1 | I used to think I knew what I was doing, now I know better | 19:00 |
| golinux | Oh, you have help from some brain-dean developers over at Devian. | 19:34 |
| golinux | Oops . . . debian of course . . . | 19:34 |
| rwp | If apt/apt-get wants to upgrade something with an install of something then the dependency is in the chain of package dependencies later somewhere. It can be tedious to figure out where though. | 19:47 |
| rwp | When running mixed version systems the "apt-show-versions | grep -v -e uptodate" tooling is useful. Install the apt-show-versions package to get that utility. | 19:48 |
| fsmithred | jjSuper1, if it's not a mission-critical installation, you may as well just finish the upgrade to excalibur. | 19:57 |
| fsmithred | that's probably easier than a full reinstall or any attempt to downgrade. | 19:58 |
| jjSuper1 | That's what I did | 19:58 |
| fsmithred | I think it's down to about 20 packages a day to upgrade, now that it's in the first phase of freeze | 19:59 |
| jjSuper1 | It seems to be running just fine. I put the laptop away to work on this, but next its getting suspend to play nice on the t420 | 19:59 |
| fsmithred | mine suspends ok | 20:00 |
| fsmithred | on lid shut | 20:00 |
| fsmithred | I can check it in a few minutes to see how I have it set up. I don't think I have two boxes that do it the same way | 20:00 |
| jjSuper1 | same | 20:06 |
| rwp | Something I have run into with newer machines (don't know about the t420) is that the X1 Nano for example disables S3 sleep (apparently due to bugs in windows from the scuttlebut) and only S2idle is available and it's not as power conserving. I have to hibernate to disk if leaving it for more than a few hours. It will drain the battery in two days using S2idle only. | 20:12 |
| jjSuper1 | MY Keyboard controls work! Linux is so cool. | 20:13 |
| XFaCE | XYZ: did you know your username was also a short-lived band? | 20:30 |
| fsmithred | rwp, how can I tell if my t420 is doing S2 or S3? | 20:47 |
| fsmithred | will it still take ssh logins in S2? | 20:48 |
| jjSuper1 | you have to... cat /sys/power/mem_... sleep? | 20:48 |
| jjSuper1 | and check | 20:48 |
| jjSuper1 | I think | 20:48 |
| fsmithred | so I have to wake it up first | 20:48 |
| fsmithred | cat /sys/power/mem_sleep | 20:51 |
| fsmithred | s2idle [deep] | 20:51 |
| rwp | I think "deep" is a synonym for S3 but my problematic system is "[s2idle]" only. | 20:53 |
| rwp | fsmithred, I have this reference https://nwildner.com/posts/2024-06-05-dell-laptop-suspend/ | 20:56 |
| rwp | That post talks about a Dell but my Lenovo X1 Nano Thinkpad was exactly the same. | 20:56 |
| fsmithred | does /etc/systemd/sleep.conf.d/freeze.conf work in devuan? | 21:15 |
| rwp | I don't know. Probably not. I am sleeping using ACPI using acpi-support package. | 21:22 |
| fsmithred | I'm using xfce4-power-manager on the t420 | 21:24 |
| jj_Super1 | Suspend and Hibernate do some strange things on the desktop | 23:17 |
| rwp | Suspend and Resume should work perfectly. For me Hibernate-Boot-From-Hibernation leaves things broken, which is fixed by immediately suspending-resuming which then fixes everything. | 23:22 |
| jj_Super1 | Suspend just immediately wakes, and hibernate actually suspends to disk, and shuts down power. I really think there is something wonky going on with my video card. OR, my coffee cup charging station is magnetically interfereing with my display cables..... | 23:23 |
| ygum | Hi, I'd like to use openrc, but I think I missed that configuration when I installed the system which was some weeks ago. | 23:41 |
| ygum | exec /etc/init.d/rc S | 23:42 |
| ygum | What init system is this? | 23:42 |
| fsmithred | ygum, default is sysviniit | 23:46 |
| fsmithred | I think you can change it with just 'apt install openrc' | 23:47 |
| ygum | The installation of openrc comes with a message of a for loop to end services and reboot immediately. | 23:49 |
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