libera/#devuan/ Monday, 2024-04-15

fluffywolfany suggestions for a pointy-clicky interface to bluetoothctl?00:31
fluffywolfbtscanner doesn't work (scan never finds things, when bluetoothctl finds them and connects), blueman seems to be pulse/systemd.00:32
fluffywolfalso, why does apt-cache show no longer show descriptions?00:38
fluffywolfbluedevil (kde) and gnome-bluetooth both would require a fuckton of their respective DEs to be installed, and both depend on pulse.00:42
rrqfluffywolf: "blueman" ?00:45
fluffywolfit seems to depend on pulse and other crap00:49
rrqmmm it's a graphical thingy so depends on those; it merely recommends the bluetooth module for pulseaudio00:51
rrqnot sure which dpe's you qualify as "other crap"00:52
fluffywolfodd, I have no-install-recommends, but it is indeed just a recommends...00:52
rrqI have blueman and no pulseaudio00:53
rrq"pure alsa" here00:53
fluffywolfI seem to no longer have no-install-recommends.00:53
fluffywolfwhy is why apt-get was trying to install pulse00:54
rrqas for "full decriptions", I think that's an apt conf ... (I'm trying to figure it out [again])00:55
fluffywolfspecifed --no-install-recommends on the command line, installed blueman...  ok, why am I back to automatically installing recommends?  lol00:56
rrqmy `APT::Install-Recommends "0";` in apt.conf has effect00:57
fluffywolfholy fuck, I just wasted 15 minutes trying to figure out why audio wasn't worked, when I'd managed to type bluealsa as blueasla somewhere.01:11
gnarfacefluffywolf: i seem to recall, the issue with package descriptions was that whoever wrote amprolla didn't trust the security of the l10n internationalization libraries, and the simplest alternate solution was to just omit them01:13
fluffywolfthat seems like doing it wrong.01:14
gnarfacei don't disagree, but unicode creeps me out too, so i can't really blame them01:14
gnarfacethe short descriptions are still there, just not the long ones01:15
fluffywolfwhat security issue did they percieve as being so intractable that disabling a fundamental feature was warranted?01:15
gnarfacei don't think there was any known security issue with them as of yet, but the key qualifier there being yet01:16
gnarfacethere's a number of theoretically devastating and completely apocalyptic potential security issues inherit to switching between character sets and unicode ramps up the attack surface by orders of magnitude01:17
gnarfacei definitely remembered looking into it at one time before and it wasn't hard to find several pretty obvious potential cases that would be absolutely catastrophic, held back by just the lack of 1 bug in l10n01:18
fluffywolfall programs could introduce catastrophic bugs...01:19
fluffywolfnot showing the package descriptions is a pretty serious what-the-fuck...01:20
gnarfaceit's been that way the whole time01:21
gnarfacei think there might be some other way to get them...01:21
fluffywolfeh?  it showed them until daedalus?01:21
gnarfacenah, i'm sure i noticed this problem almost immediately on switching to devuan01:22
gnarfacebut maybe it still shows them for ones that only have english descriptions or something?01:22
gnarfaceanyway, looks like they're still shown on pkginfo.devuan.org if you need them01:22
gnarfacemaybe there's also some way to re-enable them locally, i'd ask fsmithred01:23
fluffywolfhrmm.  I wanted to see if synaptic, which I don't usually use, still shows them...  but it no longer starts.01:27
fluffywolfstarts from command line, not from the .desktop entry.  and also is now missing descriptions.01:28
fluffywolfthe .desktop tries...01:29
fluffywolf~$ synaptic-pkexec01:30
fluffywolfError executing command as another user: Not authorized01:30
fluffywolfThis incident has been reported.01:30
fluffywolfthat's a bug.  lol01:30
fluffywolfsince .desktop files don't report errors, it just silently fails.01:30
fsmithredfluffywolf, is policykit-1-gnome installed?01:34
fluffywolfyes, but looks like it was an old version...  it upgraded when I apt-get installed it.01:35
fluffywolfno change01:35
fluffywolfI don't use synaptic (obviously), and don't really care that it doesn't start from the .desktop....01:35
fluffywolfwhy does apt-cache show not show long descriptions?  now that I do care about fixing.01:36
fsmithredI don't know.01:36
fsmithredI see long descriptions in chimaera but not in ceres.01:36
gnarfacei'm pretty sure i was told there was an explicit reason for this...01:37
fsmithredI think the long descriptions used to be missing for the devuan packages01:37
gnarface...i don't recall by who though01:37
fsmithrednot me01:37
fluffywolfyeah, I had them in chimaera as well.01:37
fluffywolfdevuan packages DO have long descriptions01:41
fluffywolfand apt-cache show shows them01:41
fluffywolfso it's only debian packages missing them01:41
fluffywolfgoogling suggests they got moved to a separate translations database?01:42
rrqrings a bell; and afair LeePen enabled translations for amprolla ...01:43
rrqand probably it need's a conf setting too; where's the reference doc of all those?01:46
fluffywolftrying to find one...01:46
fluffywolfguessing a setting needs changing somewhere, and broke on the last upgrade01:46
fluffywolfhttp://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/daedalus/main/i18n/Translation-en.bz2 only contains descriptions for devuan packages; should it also contain debian ones?01:59
fluffywolfhttp://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/daedalus/main/i18n/Translation-it.bz2 , for example, contains all the debian packages...  but the english one only contains devuan packages.02:01
* fluffywolf pokes fsmithred, since he's probably the one to answer this02:04
rrqmmm would be to tickle LeePen, actually02:12
rrqI think amprolla used to merge translations... maybe got lost or turned off02:13
fluffywolffor some reason I thought fsmithred was responsible for the repo stuff...02:14
fsmithrednope02:14
gnarfaceeh, admittedly i had been using ceres on this install before downgrading to daedalus right before the release02:15
fluffywolfit's odd that every language except english probably works.  lol02:15
rrqmostly he's onto the live installer and the "download zone"02:15
gnarfacei've got jessie through chimaera on other machines but can't claim i was paying that close of attention to the descriptions on any of those machines, as they're mostly headless02:15
fsmithredand btw I was able to make a ceres desktop-live iso today.02:16
gnarfacenow that it's been brought up though, i guess i do vaguely recall noticing it had been fixed at one point... not sure when that was or where02:16
fluffywolfI'll send leepen a message02:18
onefang"I thought fsmithred was responsible for the repo stuff"  I'm the package mirror herder, but that's after amprolla and friends create the repos.02:27
* fluffywolf has a bad memory02:29
onefangThe way I say that is - There's nothing wrong with my short term memo... what was I talking about?02:31
fluffywolflol02:31
fluffywolflooks like for english, you only get devuan packages, for other languages, you only get debian packages.02:32
rrqas for apt conf reference; there's /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configure-index (at least)02:32
fluffywolfamprolla seems to be not merging02:33
fluffywolflooking at the translation merge source, I think it'd be a lot more efficient for someone already familiar with amprolla to poke at it than for me to...02:35
fluffywolfTranslation-en.bz2 is hardcoded into the amprolla source in at least once place, which I do not understand.02:36
fluffywolfsurely it should treat all languages the same02:37
fluffywolflooks like the hardcoded en translations are to consider it the master list of forked packages02:38
fluffywolfah...  I've solved it!02:40
fluffywolfor, at least, I very highly suspect I did.02:40
fluffywolfbookworm now uses .xz for the english translations only, and bz2 for everything else...02:41
fluffywolfand amprolla doesn't do xz.02:41
fluffywolfamprolla specifically uses bz2_open, even on .xz files.02:42
onefangThis topic might be more suitable for #devuan-dev or -infra?02:43
fluffywolfhrmm.  I've never joined those channels!02:43
rrqok I can mess with that while LeePen sleeps :)02:43
sfoxi'm having a problem with Devuan where the load is very high (Load average: 290.58 290.16 289.07    )08:27
sfoxthe load keeps increasing with age08:28
sfoxi mean uptime08:28
sfoxthere's a whole bunch of crontabs in D state waiting for zpool status to finish08:28
sfoxif i run zpool status manually it never completes and it can't be aborted or killed either08:29
sfoxthis is my dmesg http://dpaste.com/ADNTHAW2Z08:29
gnarfacesfox: if you use paste.debian.net or /msg it to me i'll look at it, but no guarantees08:34
gnarface(also in my experience usually it's a particular program that's off the rails that's doing something like this, and it doesn't complain to dmesg)08:35
sfoxhttps://paste.debian.net/1314142/08:36
sfoxthe cpu load is fine08:37
gnarfaceit looks like a disk load issue08:37
gnarfacehard to say if that's from overbooking or just hardware failure though08:37
gnarface INFO: task zfs:7910 blocked for more than 120 seconds.08:38
gnarfacesometimes this is normal, like for example if you sync a cached dd write to a very slow SD card08:39
sfoxgnarface: if it's hardware failure it shouldn't hang the system like this should it?08:39
sfoxThese are SAS drives08:39
gnarface...but judging by how everything else falls apart after that, seems like it's just a symptom of something else gone wrong08:39
sfoxI specificlly bought them so they wouldn't take the system down if one failed08:39
gnarfacedepends on what you're doing with them really08:40
sfoxThere supposed to fail off the bus not hang forever08:40
gnarfacehmmm08:40
gnarfacewell i'm not super clear it's just a guess08:40
onefangDepends on the nature of the hardware failure.08:40
gnarfaceseems like then later X11 and pipewire get involved08:40
sfoxYeah but they are always segfaulting08:41
gnarfaceso maybe what happened is audio tried to do something in the graphical environment and choked on IO or something08:41
sfoxPipewire is super buggy08:41
sfoxDo i have to reboot?08:41
gnarfaceprobably, but i'd still watch for more evidence of what's going wrong after that...08:42
gnarfacei don't understand these errors well enough to tell you for sure whether it's a hardware issue or not08:42
gnarfacesd 0:0:5:0: Power-on or device reset occurred08:43
gnarface^ seems probably relevant too08:43
avir327sfox, as you write that it occurs only with new hardware: might this be a voltage issue?08:46
avir327just a shot in the dark...08:47
sfoxI could check the 12 volt bus with a voltmeter but this isn't new hardware08:47
sfoxThe power supply is prerrty high end unit made by Corsair, fed by a ferroresonate line stabilizer08:48
gnarfacedoes it happen a lot?08:49
sfoxNo this is the first time this has happened08:49
gnarfaceany pattern to recreate the issue?08:49
gnarfaceoh08:49
gnarfacehmm08:49
sfoxPipewire and X11 bell segfault all the time though08:49
gnarfacewell, i note you're using zfs...08:49
gnarfacecould be a zfs bug perhaps?08:49
sfoxThat's for redundancy08:49
sfoxCould be08:49
gnarfaceany frozen GUI programs in particular, or is the whole GUI frozen?08:50
onefangX11 bell is going via pipewire?08:50
sfoxNo that gui is fine08:51
sfoxI just can't run zpool status08:51
sfoxWithout it freezing and becoming unkillable08:51
gnarfacei'm sorry i'm not so familiar with zfs08:53
sfoxIts ok09:00
ted-ioussfox: Your pool is broken and zfs is hanging processes because they can't read the parts of the filesystem they need.09:03
ted-iousYou will have to reboot and cross your fingers that it was only a temporary error like a controller hiccup.09:04
sfoxOkay09:04
ted-iousIf your lucky and you have enough redundancy then you might be able to get the pool to heal itself.09:05
ted-iousWhat kind of pool is it?09:06
sfoxhow can i prevent this from hanging the system in the future?09:06
ted-iousI hope you won't say single disk.09:07
sfoxtwo pools09:07
ted-iousHow are they built?09:07
sfoxthe pool with the disk having problems has two mirrored vdevs09:07
ted-ious2 disks on the same controller?09:08
sfox409:08
sfoxbut one of the disks is currently missing09:08
ted-iousOh so you could have lost only 1 more disk due to a hiccup and it would have killed the pool.09:08
sfoxit got smashed during a domestic situation and i haven't had the fund to replace it yet09:08
sfoxi hope the other disk holding up the pool wasn't damaged too09:09
sfoxit's possible09:09
sfoxdepends on which disk is having problems and if it's a temporary hiccup09:09
ted-iousMaybe you can open up the system and make sure there's no pieces loose or broken while you're rebooted.09:10
sfoxoh good09:15
sfoxi'm not sure what happened but all of the pools came back up and the vdev with some redundancy left has one of it's devices re-silvering now09:16
sfox  scan: resilvered 114M in 00:01:03 with 0 errors on Mon Apr 15 02:15:11 202409:17
sfoxerrors: No known data errors09:17
sfoxit looks like one of the drives stopped working somehow but i don't see how that should prevent zpool status from working or cause linux's load to almost reach 30009:17
onefangIt was having a really hard time recovering something maybe.09:18
ted-iousIf you have any vdev's broken in a pool that kills the pool.09:19
ted-iousCan you pastebin zpool status output to paste.debian.net?09:19
sfoxsure09:22
sfoxhttps://paste.debian.net/1314144/09:22
ted-iousYou have an unmirrored tank pool and your other pool has one unprotected vdev?09:30
ted-iousI'm surprised you haven't had problems before now. :(09:30
sfoxthe tank pool replicates to the other pool09:31
sfoxthe tank pool is on a fast ssd. the backup pool is on several slow hdds09:31
sfoxone of the drives experienced a failure already, i haven't had the funds to replace it yet09:32
ted-iousBut both of them can fault from the slightest hiccup.09:32
sfoxi know ted-ious it's a tedious situation right now09:32
sfoxat least there's two copies of the data09:33
sfoxi'd do something about it if i could09:33
rustyaxei still find the usr-merge thing thats going on in modern distros amusing.. i did that 20 years ago and nearly got burned on a stake as a heretic....10:53
rrqand still, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard11:38
sfoxrustyaxe: what's the usr-merge thing?12:02
djphsfox: long story short --> a mess.  Slightly longer story "/bin and /sbin make no sense now, we're jamming it into /usr/bin or /usr/sbin"12:05
sfoxoh12:06
sfoxhow do I do that to my system?12:06
sfoxi don't like there being four different places for binaries12:07
djphdo note that (AIUI anyway), usrmerge currently breaks more than it fixes.  YMMV, etc.12:07
djphtest on a VM if you can ... but otherwise, it's the 'usrmerge' package12:08
sfoxi'm sure i can fix it if it happens12:08
sfoxi have more issues with PAH caused by not checking that option way back when i first installed12:08
djpheh?12:08
sfox*PATH12:08
djphum12:09
djph$PATH hasn't changed with or without usrmerge ...12:09
ted-iousWhy aren't they already in your path from one or more config files in /etc?12:09
sfoxsudo issues12:09
sfoxso i just install usrmerge and that's it?12:10
djphthis is sounding very XY12:10
sfoxwhat's that mean?12:10
rustyaxeWhy scramble the egg when you can scramble the chicken?12:10
sfoxthe whole way Linux manages it's filesystem is odd to me12:11
sfoxI'd much prefer the BSD FHS12:11
djphsfox: "XY Problem"12:11
sfoxbut then again with linux being a bunch of random pieces from random people instead of a complete operating system by one coherent team I understand why that can't be.12:11
djphI'm fairly certain *BSD still runs with all four locations ...12:12
rustyaxeyet the same random pieces are the ones used for anything but the base system in the bsds....12:12
rrqcollaboration rests on agreement and stability; when change is agreed it takes effort to update all documentation, plus documenting the transition.12:15
sfoxthe BSDs don't put firefox in /bin12:16
rrqso BSDs don't have /usr/bin/ and /bin/ being the same directory12:19
djphneither does devuan ... uh, unless I can't use "ls" right now12:21
djphbut post usrmerge , "/bin/ls" becomes "/usr/bin/ls"12:22
rrqit becames *both*12:22
rustyaxe 0 lrwxrwxrwx   1 root   root        7 Jan 12 10:03 bin -> usr/bin12:24
rustyaxeBoth, yet neither :P12:24
djphrrq: I mean I guess a symlink counts as "both" maybe ...12:26
rrqtry "cp /usr/bin/ls /bin"12:29
djphrrq: but /usr/bin/ls doesn't exist here, because I've not yet been forced to usrmerge.12:30
rrqah, yes of course :) ... with usr-merge I get the error message: "cp: '/usr/bin/ls' and '/bin/ls' are the same file12:31
djphrrq: in either event, suffice to say, I know just enough about usrmerge to be going "oh boy, not another systemd already..."12:32
djph(which is, quite likely "not enough")12:32
rrqI don't mind either way personally, but I see the cost in documenting that change, which has no technical motivation12:33
rrqwith usr-merge, you can drop the "/usr" prefix on all "/usr/bin/"  files ... or conversely, you can add "/usr" prefix on any "/bin" pathname12:35
djphor without it, I just let my $PATH figure it out and I'm none the wiser (yeah, yeah, implications in cron, etc. aside)12:37
rrqyes, it was one of the early beauties for me (some few decades ago), to run a program without using a "run" command :)12:46
eightonenoneanything going on with beowulf apt sources?  mirrors have a timestamp of today (15-apr-2024) and beowulf-updates looks mostly empty.16:11
dokmaIf apt-get source package, apt build-dep package, debuild -b -uc -us fails without modifying the source is that a good indication of a bug?16:21
Jorileightonenone: There was a problem and it has been fixed, we have just to wait for the mirrors to update16:30
Hurgotrondokma: that doesn't sound like it should happen. Which package?16:31
dokmasocat16:31
dokmaTests 309, 310, and 399 fail16:31
golinuxI think that beowulf has been archived so you need to change your sources.list.16:43
dokmaHurgotron: can you try and replicate?16:46
HurgotronJust did, same for me16:47
Hurgotronon Daedalus.16:47
eightonenonethanks, updated my sources.list to point to archive.17:01
Hurgotrondokma: do you happen to have a Debian install to check against?17:03
fsmithredeightonenone, archive.devuan.org does not have beowulf-security at this time17:11
ROCmsimpDoes Devuan have PGP/GPG verification of any sort or only SHA256 checksum is present?17:11
fsmithredI thought apt used gpg17:12
ROCmsimpThe ISO file itself I mean17:12
fsmithredoh17:12
ROCmsimptrying to verify right now17:12
fsmithredyes, they are signed by whoever makes the iso17:12
fsmithredwhich iso?17:12
ROCmsimpdesktop, latest daedalus17:13
fsmithredinstaller isos should be signed by Ralph Ronquist17:13
fsmithrednot sure if I spelled that right17:13
fsmithredlive isos are signed by me17:13
fsmithredactually the shasum file is gpg signed.17:14
ROCmsimpI see, that might come in handy17:17
fsmithredThis page tells how to verify the images: https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/daedalus/install-devuan17:20
dokmaHurgotron: unfortunately everything I have is on Devuan - laptop, desktop, servers and vms...18:40
dokmaI detes systemd with a passion18:40
dokma*detest*18:41
Hurgotrondokma: Same here aktually :)19:35
Guest36Hello I am trying to install the latest 5.0.1 netinstall version, but there is no firmware available for my intel 6300 wireless card, however when I try the 5.0.0 desktop-live version it works just fine. Aren't all the releases supposed to provide the same firmware during install? The reason why I would prefer the netinstall is that the desktop23:07
Guest36install experience is very lacking.23:07
rrqwould you know which package is missing from 5.0.1?23:09
fsmithredgoogle says iwlwifi23:14
fsmithredGuest36, are you getting the message at the beginning of the install and it's asking you to supply firmware?23:15
Guest36I don't know the exact package name, but it would have to provide iwlwifi-6000-4.ucode and regulatory.db23:15
fsmithredif so, ignore it and proceed.23:15
fsmithredthe firmware you need is in the iso and will be installed unless you go to pains to avoid it23:16
fsmithredfirmware-iwlwifi23:16
Guest36I did install it and now I have a very barebones install, how would I bring this online?23:19
rrqmount the iso (first partition) and use dpkg to install the package23:22
rrqthen add an iface stanza to /etc/network interfaces with wpa-ssid amd wpa-psk settings23:28
rrqthen bring it up with "ifup wlan0"23:28
Guest36rrq OK I have tried installing iwlwifi from the firmware directory using "dpkg -i" but it fails due to ldconfig and start-stop-daemon not found in path or not executable.23:30
Guest36Hol up it's me getting filtered by debian shenanigans23:31
Guest36did su instead of su -23:31
Guest36Now it fails due to unexpected end of file in archive magic version number23:35
rrq"it"?23:39
rrqdpkg I guess23:39
Guest36rrq sorry, dpkg -i firmware-iwlwifi fails23:40
rrqdoes it help with --force-all ?23:40
Guest36rrq nope, still the magic version number error.23:42
rrqok, unpack by hand: ar p firmware-iwlwifi*.deb data.tar.xz | tar xf -23:43
rrqdo that as root at / if you're gung-ho :)23:44
rrqmmm should be xJf23:44
Guest36rrq what do you mean with "ar p"?23:45
rrq"ar" is a program (command) and "p" is an argument to it (to  unpack to stdout)23:45
n4dirdeb files are ar files, if i remember correct. Or at least kinda23:47
Guest36rrq apparently ar is not included in the core install23:47
rrqthat makes it slightly harder ... it's possible to use dd but it needs a skip= setting... I can find it out...23:49
rrqthis is amd64 ?23:49
Guest36Correct, amd6423:50
rrqhmm fsmithred, where is 5.0.1_amd64_netinstall.iso ?23:51
rrqso, unpack with: dd if=firmware-iwlwifi_20230210-5_all.deb bs=1 skip=4024 | tar xJf -23:55
rrqno...that' the header block...23:58
rrqshould be 408823:59

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