| agneli | so all in all, looks like the issue is specific to me | 06:59 |
|---|---|---|
| agneli | ie I messed up something with cards... | 07:00 |
| agneli | but hell... what exactly? :) | 07:00 |
| gnarface | agneli: good question, my only idea is that outdated e2fsprogs bug | 07:13 |
| gnarface | you might want to try another filesystem though anyway | 07:13 |
| gnarface | i think i did also run into one instance of a cheap/old SD card that would keep getting corrupted in ext4 regardless of the e2fsprogs version | 07:14 |
| gnarface | couldn't quite prove it but switched filesystems and it stopped happening | 07:14 |
| agneli | it is not getting corrupted | 07:15 |
| agneli | :) | 07:15 |
| agneli | i never really lost anything | 07:16 |
| agneli | just need to reisntall the software | 07:16 |
| agneli | which is a pain for big stuff | 07:16 |
| agneli | it just goes ro suddenly | 07:16 |
| agneli | god knows why | 07:17 |
| gnarface | well the corruption might be local to a particular directory or file and not super obvious, possibly even hidden | 07:17 |
| gnarface | the auto-switch to "ro" mode is triggered by the device firmware in the event of any of a certain class of filesystem errors | 07:17 |
| agneli | you mean that even fsck will not find the corrupted fs elements? | 07:17 |
| agneli | i do not believe I have outdated anything... | 07:18 |
| gnarface | yea some times that was the case when this was happening to me with ext4, and the device firmware couldn't seem to distinguish from a hardware error. experts from the distro (raspbian at the time) even told me without a shadow of a doubt that they were sure my sd card was fried | 07:18 |
| gnarface | yet time and time again, i'd just zero it with dd and it'd work again | 07:18 |
| gnarface | eventually i just gave up on ext4 | 07:18 |
| agneli | how come the device fw recognizes fs errors? | 07:19 |
| gnarface | (none of the maintainers could admit to having even tested it on SD media) | 07:19 |
| agneli | achhh so what fs you would recommend for sd cards, please? | 07:19 |
| gnarface | i don't know that either. like i said, i suspect it just can't tell the difference when it's a certain type of filesystem error | 07:19 |
| gnarface | i would these days recommend trying xfs first, probably | 07:20 |
| gnarface | it's super fast for reads | 07:20 |
| gnarface | also it's the only one that has multi-threading support | 07:20 |
| gnarface | i was shocked to find that out | 07:21 |
| agneli | what I would believe is happening it is some sort of buffer unrerrun... card is to slow to accept the data, and anyway cards are optimized to cope with FAT which is much much simpler fs than any ext fs | 07:21 |
| gnarface | every other filesystem is single-threaded | 07:21 |
| agneli | oh | 07:21 |
| agneli | i guess I need to rtfm... | 07:21 |
| gnarface | yea, xfs also seems to have a lot lower write overhead than ext4 for me, when it comes to just how many operations it takes to actually commit stuff | 07:21 |
| agneli | what does it mean single-threaded fs... | 07:21 |
| gnarface | just means that xfs is the only one that can benefit from a multi-core cpu | 07:22 |
| gnarface | it's the only one that can actually use multiple cpu cores to speed itself up | 07:22 |
| gnarface | i also found out reiserfs works really well but i can't recommend it just because there's a social stigma attached to it that's so strong it may actually lead to literal persecution | 07:23 |
| agneli | social stigma? | 07:24 |
| agneli | like systemd | 07:25 |
| gnarface | what i would recommend against is f2fs because even though it claims to be flash friendly it's been associated with some increased reports of hardware failure rates in another channel i'm nin | 07:25 |
| gnarface | i'm in* | 07:25 |
| agneli | reiserfs is there since very very long... | 07:26 |
| gnarface | yea, xfs and reiserfs would be my top two picks for sd cards | 07:27 |
| gnarface | jfs, ext3, they'll work fine just be slower | 07:27 |
| gnarface | ext4 i'd avoid using on anything slow | 07:27 |
| * agneli is very curious about social stigma on reiserfs | 07:27 | |
| gnarface | you really don't know? | 07:27 |
| gnarface | it's sorta offtopic for here but the lead developer was convicted of murder | 07:28 |
| onefang | https://go.theregister.com/feed/www.theregister.com/2023/05/31/bugs_in_ex_sgi_xfs/ might be important to you if using XFS and kernel 6.3. | 07:28 |
| agneli | oh man... that is really kinda bizzare feeling... | 07:29 |
| gnarface | oh, thanks for the warning onefang. luckily nothing i have here is past 6.1 yet | 07:29 |
| agneli | like listening to Norwegian black metal... | 07:29 |
| gnarface | haha, yea i heard those guys aren't kidding either | 07:30 |
| agneli | thank you gnarface, you are always so kind and helpful | 07:30 |
| gnarface | no problem, good luck with it | 07:30 |
| agneli | so basically ext4 is not good for slow devices | 07:30 |
| gnarface | that's been my experience | 07:30 |
| agneli | th eother thing is why the hell I see nothing in logs | 07:30 |
| gnarface | i can't get any experts to believe me | 07:30 |
| agneli | maybe I am not competent enough to find out? :( | 07:31 |
| gnarface | no i think it's hiding the errors honestly | 07:31 |
| gnarface | or it doesn't know | 07:31 |
| gnarface | doesn't matter | 07:31 |
| gnarface | what matters is if you switch to xfs and it stops happening you make sure to tell someone | 07:31 |
| agneli | so we are saying it is the fw of the card that sends some signal to kernel to make particular fs ro | 07:31 |
| agneli | but hell kernel should log it, no? what is that? windows? :( | 07:32 |
| * agneli promises to return | 07:32 | |
| gnarface | seems like it should be logged somewhere but maybe you have to enable extra log verbosity or something | 07:32 |
| agneli | but well switch... will parted just convert my fs over weekend? | 07:32 |
| agneli | ~30 GiB | 07:33 |
| agneli | and speaning about devuan on arm, what sbc is all the rage now, please? :) | 07:37 |
| gnarface | i'm not sure if parted can convert between those two filesystems | 07:43 |
| gnarface | i kinda doubt it | 07:43 |
| gnarface | you wouldn't want to risk it if it's corrupted anyway | 07:44 |
| onefang | A question I'd like to ask as well. Old client wants to switch his embedded device to a Pi, but the are still very hard to get. | 07:44 |
| agneli | fsck says fs is OK | 07:44 |
| onefang | The old device is a 486 SBC about the size of a bigger Pi. I build a very cut down Linux for it. | 07:45 |
| gnarface | someone should buy some pine64 hardware for devuan, so there can be official images | 07:45 |
| agneli | onefang: there are news spread by the pi foundation that hard times are over | 07:45 |
| gnarface | devuan is working great on my pine64 A64+ boards, but i had to compile the kernel and u-boot myself | 07:46 |
| gnarface | i assume it'd work pretty much the same way for their faster stuff | 07:46 |
| onefang | Yes, but I checked my usual supplier for Pi stuff, and they say that all but two of their dozens of devices are "pre order, wait months". | 07:46 |
| * agneli never bought any pine64 device as many ppl on this very channel confirmed their support is crap and build quality not so great | 07:46 | |
| gnarface | well they have the exact same support quality as the Pi | 07:47 |
| gnarface | which is to say, none, because it's 100% community volunteers actually supporting it | 07:47 |
| onefang | That supplier has plenty of Beagle Boards. | 07:47 |
| gnarface | their build quality is inferior but that's usually not an issue for the SoC stuff because they're all one piece and one of it is plastic | 07:48 |
| agneli | according to wikipedia reiserfs is planned to be removed from linux kernel | 07:48 |
| gnarface | unsurprising, it's already been removed from the debian installer | 07:48 |
| gnarface | some releases ago | 07:48 |
| gnarface | nobody wants to maintain it | 07:49 |
| gnarface | possibly also many people don't want it maintained | 07:49 |
| gnarface | a shame too, because it is actually still a good filesystem | 07:57 |
| gnarface | but so is xfs | 07:57 |
| gnarface | both those filesystems were designed on and for much slower hardware so that gives them an edge | 07:58 |
| onefang | "their build quality is inferior" you mean the pine64, not the Beagle Boards? | 08:00 |
| onefang | Housemate keeps bothering me, as is his habit, or I would have asked that earlier. | 08:02 |
| gnarface | onefang: yea, pine64, not the beagle boards. and they will replace defective stuff, it's just that shipping and import fees from hong kong are really brutal | 08:04 |
| onefang | So our original question stands (agneli and mine) what's a good ARM based SoC / SBC that runs Devuan / special built cut down Linux, that is "all the rage now" and can actually be bought. In my case my client will want hundreds after the initial dev copies. | 08:04 |
| gnarface | yea i think you should seriously look into pine64 because the low cost in that case makes up for the shipping fees AND the quality control issues | 08:06 |
| onefang | We did try out Olimex boards a few year ago. I managed to destroy one. lol | 08:06 |
| agneli | to add a bit to onefang's topic... what about those Bulgaria or Romania folks? th eones that make agon light 8 bit board? | 08:06 |
| agneli | ach yes exactly | 08:06 |
| agneli | Olimex I mean | 08:06 |
| gnarface | https://pine64.com/product-category/pine-a64-ltslong-term-supply/ | 08:08 |
| onefang | As for buying a pine64 for Devuan builds, I could get the client to pay for that. B-) | 08:08 |
| gnarface | i can tell you how to build a kernel and u-boot for this one | 08:08 |
| gnarface | but you might want to go with this one instead, if you're going for performance https://pine64.com/product-category/rockpro64/ | 08:09 |
| gnarface | the first one is an AllWinner brand CPU, the second one is Rockchip | 08:09 |
| agneli | what about Olimex being able to ship overnight(EU countries)ODOC? and made in EU/warranty? | 08:09 |
| gnarface | they have some risc-v stuff out now too but i wouldn't gamble on the kernel support really being there yet | 08:09 |
| onefang | As I said, it's replacing an old 486 embedded SBC, so performance isn't a big concern. | 08:09 |
| gnarface | oh, the A64 board will blow the doors off that | 08:10 |
| onefang | Me and my client are in Australia, so we dunno about Olimex EU shipping and warranty. | 08:10 |
| agneli | Ach :) | 08:10 |
| gnarface | agneli: for whatever it's worth, pine64eu.com ships from poland and has the eu warranty (which is why their prices are higher than pine64.com too, but they're a legit store) | 08:10 |
| gnarface | pine64eu.com may have a limited selection of parts, i think they mostly sell cellphones from there | 08:11 |
| agneli | Poland? | 08:11 |
| onefang | So your answer to our question gnarface is "pine64", and NOT just coz Devuan needs it as well? | 08:11 |
| gnarface | onefang: i admit there's a dual motive but i do think they're also the hot new player | 08:12 |
| agneli | so you support both in one go: communists(CCP) and national socialists(PL)? :D | 08:12 |
| agneli | but u seem very convinced about pine64 gnarface | 08:13 |
| agneli | I was looking especially at their eink device | 08:13 |
| gnarface | offtopic for here but, but it's not a political choice | 08:13 |
| onefang | I mostly just want to support my client, don't think he's either of those. lol | 08:13 |
| gnarface | i do not support communism, national socialism, totaliarian regimes, or censoring of history | 08:14 |
| * agneli remains silent | 08:14 | |
| agneli | what about eink, please? :) | 08:15 |
| onefang | I'll be hanging around to see what other people think as well. | 08:15 |
| gnarface | i haven't seen one of their e-ink devices yet | 08:15 |
| agneli | so I will wait... | 08:16 |
| onefang | e-ink isn't something I have been looking at. Frame buffer and colour VGA is what we do now. HDMI would also work. | 08:16 |
| * agneli is a huge fan of eink | 08:16 | |
| gnarface | what happened is just that i was looking for something to replace my raspberry pi, because i was fed up with their shitty community, i already had previous beef with broadcom for other reasons, and i wanted something that wasn't suspiciously encumbered by non-free firmware to unlock flagship features | 08:16 |
| gnarface | then someone pointed out pine64 on slashdot's daily deals page | 08:17 |
| gnarface | i talked to the kids a little bit | 08:17 |
| agneli | ach yes... raspberry comminity... I really understand | 08:17 |
| onefang | More open hardware is why we where looking at Olimex. Pine64 has that benefit to. | 08:17 |
| gnarface | they seemed like nice college boys who just wanted to help out the linux community | 08:17 |
| gnarface | they consider themselves capitalists and they're in it for the money, but most their devices are sold very close to cost | 08:18 |
| gnarface | and they have their own irc network, irc.pine64.org and there's people who will talk to you about their stuff all day there from all over the world | 08:18 |
| agneli | what about those folks: https://radxa.com/ | 08:19 |
| gnarface | i've heard nothing about them | 08:20 |
| agneli | so many boards :) | 08:20 |
| onefang | I don't need any support "I, a very experienced developer, can get the clients bespoke Linux that I put together running on it" I can probably get that sorted with no help. Client would just want "deliver when you say you will, replace any broken ones". | 08:20 |
| onefang | radxa is new to me to. | 08:20 |
| onefang | Oh and decent docs so we can wire up the hardware and drive it. | 08:21 |
| gnarface | onefang: if you're actually interested in bulk orders you should contact sales@pine64.org directly and ask what type of support deals they'll offer. i'm pretty sure they're willing to do different types of relations business-to-business than they are just selling to hobbyists and developers | 08:21 |
| gnarface | that's what i've been told to tell people anyway | 08:22 |
| onefang | SAme with the Pi people, and all the other embedded parts suppliers. | 08:22 |
| gnarface | yea but broadcom are shifty assholes | 08:23 |
| onefang | Agreed. lol | 08:23 |
| onefang | In general "I want 300 tomorrow" will get you a better reaction than " I want 1 tomorrow". | 08:24 |
| agneli | heheh | 08:27 |
| agneli | yeah but what about our mental health | 08:28 |
| agneli | when quality is not there? | 08:28 |
| * agneli ordered 1200 acer laptops once... | 08:28 | |
| agneli | never again... | 08:28 |
| gnarface | no question i would recommend ordering extra | 08:28 |
| gnarface | if you're ordering from pine64 | 08:28 |
| gnarface | just in case a few are defective | 08:28 |
| gnarface | just to save time | 08:29 |
| agneli | of course the ones that broke were the ones handed over to the most sensitive users, murphy's law... | 08:29 |
| gnarface | yea i would also recommend testing everything before handing it over | 08:29 |
| onefang | When it came to the daughter board that hooks up to the hardware and pretends to be a USB keyboard, I wrote the PIC code in assembler, for fun. My mental health is questionable anyway. We want to drive the hardware directly this time though. | 08:30 |
| agneli | can I come back to original topis, please? | 08:34 |
| agneli | https://developer.ridgerun.com/wiki/index.php/High_performance_SD_card_tuning_using_the_EXT4_file_system | 08:34 |
| agneli | does it make any sense? | 08:35 |
| gnarface | what does it say to do? | 08:56 |
| gnarface | increase the commit interval or something? | 08:56 |
| gnarface | increase block sizes? | 08:57 |
| gnarface | i never found anything that helped but if you find something that does let me know | 08:58 |
| agneli | remover journal and optimize some in kernel parameters... | 09:11 |
| agneli | I will std stuff before any changes... | 09:12 |
| agneli | *study | 09:13 |
| agneli | anybody seen this, btw: https://docs.maxxinteractive.com/books/mid-v211-installation-guide/page/debian-guide-%28x64%29 | 10:25 |
| agneli | :) | 10:25 |
| gnarface | agneli: lol don't remove the journal | 10:36 |
| gnarface | that's terrible advice | 10:36 |
| gnarface | sure, it'll make it faster but at what cost? | 10:36 |
| gnarface | the journal is practically the whole point | 10:36 |
| gnarface | that would definitely be an irrational choice for solving a potential filesystem corruption issue | 10:38 |
| gnarface | also, at that point you might as well just run ext2 | 10:39 |
| onefang | Agreed. | 10:46 |
| agneli | let me quote myself: "09:12 < agneli> I will std stuff before any changes..." | 13:41 |
| agneli | :) | 13:41 |
| agneli | but I am grateful for your remarks anyway | 13:41 |
| agneli | "price of freedom is eternal vigilance" - who know where this one comes from? :) | 13:42 |
| agneli | ach and this std = study :) | 13:44 |
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